[PB 61 - Spoilers] rekenner stands the Test of Time. ... Hopefully.

[rekenner]

Right, right, but the idea being that Oromos (eg, musekts) are now the "best" value to draft (in terms of food to hammers) and them being a decent power spike. But, that's a fair point that I might never see them.

Re: Religion, it's mostly wanting to try religion out in an MP game. I don't need the culture, this is true.

Yep, I'm aware of that, for the sandbox. It's Monarch/Standard. Thanks for making sure, though.

Re: Arabia/Byzantium: ... the thing I'm finding with this start is that I get the Worker almost *too* fast. It's a t10 worker. I'm finding it a bit hard to keep my worker in actions in my sandbox if I don't go with a more reasonable start (which was probably also a nail in the coffin for Myst). Of course, some of that changes with being able to scout beyond the capital area and seeing where I'll be putting down my second city.

[Miguelito]

Right, right, but the idea being that Oromos (eg, musekts) are now the "best" value to draft (in terms of food to hammers) and them being a decent power spike. But, that's a fair point that I might never see them.

Re: Religion, it's mostly wanting to try religion out in an MP game. I don't need the culture, this is true.

...

Re: Arabia/Byzantium: ... the thing I'm finding with this start is that I get the Worker almost *too* fast. It's a t10 worker. I'm finding it a bit hard to keep my worker in actions in my sandbox if I don't go with a more reasonable start (which was probably also a nail in the coffin for Myst). Of course, some of that changes with being able to scout beyond the capital area and seeing where I'll be putting down my second city.

I can see us getting to gunpowder when it still matters. I've never played with Oromos, are they particularly good? I've read somewhere their main use being material for rifle upgrades, which doesn't sound promising.

For religion, I would argue that Catherine really isn't the one to fiddle with that too early. As you said. we don't need the culture. We want to plant cities, claim land, and scramble to Currency. I usually am all in favour of a diversion before Currency, but here I'd argue we really ought to go there straight after the worker techs. After that, it is just one more tech for a religion, and if we're HRE (or Aztecs) that is also the tech that we very much want . The question then is just which religious civic to aim for. Shwedagon could be an option, to avoid most of the bottom path for a long time (still want Monarchy most likely). After Currency we could also take a shot at MoM (beware, in CtH it obsoletes at Nationalism, but if we don't care too much about drafting it should be good for 3 GAs).

Looking at the start, what is your priority for the worker? I count 11 turns to camp both deers (includes a road if you have wheel).

• After that it's 5 more turns for the ivory if you want that, and you can road the forested hill first if you want to connect it (I'm not sure you would want to, it costs 4 worker turns which is a lot early - but otoh you want the happy, and if you're there already might as well do it).
  
• Or mine the cow - if not for the second city, rushing AH doesn't look like a priority?
  
• If you want to chop and mine the green hill after the deers you do need BW which is only possible if you start with one of mining/hunting. But for the otehr options I feel like any techs should be fine.
  

Being able to lay down roads while moving workers is also nice, if not overly important. Fwiw this is just gut feel, I haven't calculated the actual tech speed.

Maybe I go HRE even if I don't think I can take a religion, Rat Houses are that damn good. (I'm going to call them Rat Houses and Land Snakes and you can't stop me! Okay, maybe you can.)

I for one approve. Rat houses all over the map!

[rekenner]

Oromos are ... weird. They do very well against everything *except* Knights, thanks to the first strike immunity. Which, the more I think about it, means it's probably something that you can abuse vs the AI well more than you can abuse vs other humans. Drill 2 + C1 Oromos slap. You come out of combats that you win with very little damage very often, it's fun. Medic 3 unit + Oromos can keep fighting very quickly.

It's really less about worker actions and more about worker actions and techs in a way that I feel sets me up best for 2nd city terrain. Basically at this point I'm still really just hemming and hawing between Mali and HRE, where I've set up a great worker plan for Mali, but I need to go in the lab for HRE a little bit more to see if there's a plan I'm missing.

[Charriu]

20% less collateral is also nice. For a great example of collateral immunity and to a lesser extent this effect from drill see the final attack in PB43.

There Mr. Cairo had noticed that he can avoid most collateral damage by having enough siege weapons and machine guns in his city

[Sullla]

It looks like the civ choice will be getting back around to rekenner sometime tomorrow. After thinking a bit more on this, my main recommendation would be to avoid any civ that starts with Fishing or Mysticism techs. Neither tech is needed in the early stages of this start and it slows down the opening too much to have either one of them sitting around as dead weight. (Mysticism especially - there's zero need for this tech early on with Creative Cathy on hand.) We know that the key early techs in Civ4 are always Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry, and Pottery in some order and the trick is figuring out what the best order is to prioritize them. Without simming the start, I like picking Mali the best in this position: Wheel (60) and Mining (50) are the most expensive techs that this start wants to have and allows immediate Hunting research into either Animal Husbandry or Bronze Working. It also allows for early road building which avoids considerable waste in the immediate worker micro. Mali has a very good unique unit and a decent unique building so it's a nice choice even outside the starting techs. (If this was non-modded Civ4 I would pick the Persians or Zulus for their Agriculture/Hunting starting techs and go right into Animal Husbandry but this mod makes Agriculture 50% cheaper to research so there's no real need for them here.)

I definitely would not pick Holy Rome because Mysticism is such a dud tech for this start. A unique building that comes online 100 turns into the game is not as important as getting the correct starting techs and starting out with a fast opening. Your call but that's my advice.

[rekenner]

The die is cast! .... and as I was writing that, I got a call I need to take care of, so I'll come back with thoughts as time allows.

[rekenner]

The Field (with some Close to Home mod notes):
JackRB: Julius Caesar (ORG/IMP) of Khmer (Hunting, Mining; Ballista Elephant (7 str), Baray (Colosseum cheaper in CtH))
rekenner: Cathy (IMP/CRE) of Mali (Wheel, Mining; Skirmisher, Mint (Metal Casting cheaper in CtH))
Joshybravo963: Cyrus (IMP/CHA) of Rome (Fishing, Mining; Forum, Praetorian)
Vanrober: Asoka (SPI/ORG) of India (Myst, Mining; Fast Worker (Movement 3 -> 2, Mobility), Mausoleum)
BING_XI_LAO: Hannibal (FIN/CHA) of Mongols (Wheel, Hunting; Keshik, Ger)
Bellarch: Victoria (FIN/IMP) of Inca (Myst, Agri; Quechua, Terrace: Makes city act as a source of fresh water instead of +2 culture, Cost 45)
JesseL: Churchill (PRO/CHA) of Germany (Hunting, Mining; Assembly Plant available at Steam Power instead of Assembly line, +2 hammer, Riesengarde - replace Grenadier, available at Chemistry, starts with Pinch)

I'm not going to pretend like I know the players/ded lurkers well enough to really comment on their skill and with traits / civs being a lot closer in power, a lot of these combos look good. Bellarch is probably the player most capable of running away with the game with Financial if they aren't threatened, though JackRB's IMP/ORG is also strong, as it seems like ORG might be closer to FIN with faster courthouses? Joshy's IMP/CHA Rome will also be scary - CHA Praetorians and a good landgrab. If their opening has good synergy with their techs, they're the combo I'm most scared of. CHA + Ger Keshiks are also scary from Bing, Gers mean double promoted Keshiks right out of the gate, barracks + any other source of unit XP get them to three promotions. And Hannibal *is* still FIN. Keshiks can certainly force the issue on a landgrab. Still, researching HBR and Archery early are a little bit of a cost. Vanrober's start probably a very Fast Worker improved start, and we'll see how well they can take advantage of SPI, it can be quite strong if we get to the point in the game where they can use it to take advantage of slavery/nationhood + econ civic. I'm a bit confused by the Churchill take (tho part of that is that I'm used to BtS PRO, I'm glad I'll get to see it in action), but Germany makes sense if Hunting/Mining are the right starting techs, Hunting/Mining is a bit sparse in terms of early game advantage Civs, and the Riesengarde do get improved by Pro, which could have been the deciding factor for them.

Also, 4/7 picks with IMP. The IMP cascade definitely happened. (Okay, or maybe those were all planned out picks anyway. I'm excited to read everyone's thoughts on their opening picks, once I can.)

Some thoughts I was writing about Mali as I noticed that my pick was up:
Yeah -- I tried a lot of starting tech combos and the reduced cost of Agri means I think going for Wheel/Mining lets me get into Food Techs + BW + Pottery the easiest. Wheel/Mining is the highest cost combo of techs. My current start plan has Worker, 2 warriors, Settler, 3 improved resources, and possibly a road that will cut a turn off the settler's travel path (depending on where it wants to go) by t27. I'm very happy with where that puts me, as it has flexibility in terms of tech path in terms of being ready for unknown info. Myst/X starts slowed that down a lot, with the exception of lol Fast Worker (this is a pretty good fast worker start, but very few aren't). 2 warriors might be a bit defensive, but that lines up perfectly with growing to size 3.

I think Rat Houses are a very strong building, and I did want to try Religion in MP (Religion is one of my favorite mechanics in the game), but it just doesn't seem reasonable (2 other myst starts, which India and Inca make sense) nor does it fit with Cathy as a pick. I don't think the Cathy pick was wrong, but it's something I'll have to play around with in a future PB. If I still want to show my face around here after this PB is done, hah. Myst without needing or wanting religion or monuments... I don't think justifies the Rat Houses. 100 beakers on t1 compared to more commerce/turn in the midgame.

Which leads to what I think of my picks in the context of this:
I'm happy with them! An early game defensive unit fits my style, I like my sim plan, and I like the Cathy pick. Creative's culture is both a slightly offensive and a slightly defensive trait and without IMP in this field, I feel like I'd be at a disadvantage.

[rekenner]

Capital buildplan: Worker (t10) -> Warrior (t15) -> Warrior (t20) -> Settler (t27), with 1 overflow.
Capital hits size 2 on t16, size 3 on t20, same time as second warrior pops out. At size 1 it works Grassland Forest Deer, Size 2 it adds the Grasslands River Deer. Size 3 it starts working a Grasslands Forest Hill until Plains Hill Cow is completed.

Given tile yields, I think growing on 2 warriors is good economically and gives me more scouting and more units. I may consider the second warrior being growing on a fishing boat instead if I see a coast fish in a spot for a second city?

Tech plan: Hunting (t6) .... then based on what my scout sees. Possibly Agri (t12) -> AH (t23), possibly -> AH (t19). But probably Agri first, because it's basically a 4 turn research because of the boost to AH from knowing both pre-reqs. The delay doesn't hurt the worker improving Plains Hill Cow, but if I don't see any agri resources, it does push back BW 4 turns, but I don't think I can really make a call on the value of either plan without seeing more of the map. I'll only have 6 turns worth of scout moves to make my decision, but it's still more than I have now. From there, Pottery finishes in 9 turns or BW in 13. I have a lot of overflow beakers coming out of AH, though that doesn't delay the worker so swapping 1H for 1C doesn't make sense.

First Worker (Tinkerer, yes, I plan on naming some workers, at least my first handful) plan: Improve Grassland Forest Deer SE of Capital (finished on t14), walk to tile W or NW of capital, put one turn into road on one of those tiles (based on scout info), then improve Grasslands River Deer 2W of capital (finished on t20), finish the road that's half complete (t21), walk onto Plains Hill Cow (t22, finished on t26).

I have considered Hunting -> BW to just end up mining the Plains Hill Cow, but I wouldn't get a chop started until t27 at the earliest, anyway, though it's something I'll think about based on the map (eg, my initial scouting reveals no Agri or AH resources, although AH to see horses before second plant has value). I could chop after the 2nd Deer gets improved, but I don't like that, given that the tile yields around my capital are incredible. Get those going ASAP. This feels a little awkward because I want my 2nd worker to be W of the capital at this point and most of my forests are E of the capital. I suspect I'll be able to start work on tiles for the second city with Tinkerer at this point with the food-techs research plan to occupy their time. Second city is almost certainly going to be splitting off the Grasslands River Deer and Plains Hill Cow, so that puts Tinkerer in a good spot for that and capital will hit third ring on T25 (Thanks, CRE!)

[Miguelito]

Certainly a nice pick! Cover the Imp plants with skirmishers behind Cre culture and the other guyswill have a hard time to keep you from taking more than your fair share ofthe cake. The challenge will be to keep up economically. Do you agree with Currency asap (valid detours only Sailing, AH), or do you have other plans?

I would not take AH for the plains hill cow alone, that is a nice but not very good tile. Of course the second city most likely wants Agri or AH. But there's a good chance that you can pull BW before AH. In particular it would be helpful to revolt while the settler is moving at the latest, if that is not in your plans anyways. I usually like to 2 pop whip the first settler, in particular with Imp, but you may think otherwise.
Does a 2 worker opening make any sense?

[rekenner]

A pastured plains hill cow is 2F4H, which is 6 FoodHammers towards Workers and 8 FoodHammers towards ImpSettlers. That's a quite good tile. It doesn't justify AH on its own, but I'm just assuming I'll see Agri and/or AH resources in my scouting for my second city. If I go Hunting -> BW, I do have a plan for a double whipped settler and a mined Cow. I just feel like that's the less likely thing I'll want, based on what I find out in the fog? I do have a plan simmed out for that, though. Just Agri resources means Hunting -> BW -> Agri is fine, in terms of tech timings. Turn 6 will be the turn I have to go into the tank, at any rate.

Certainly Currency beeline after worker techs are finished, yep.

And, I couldn't figure out a good 2 worker start. Just the sorta absurd yields of the tiles has made growing onto them feel like the best start. I haven't found a sim plan that works out better, at least.