(August 22nd, 2021, 09:03)Tarkeel Wrote: I have a message for you from Mjmd/Bellarch:
(August 22nd, 2021, 08:29)Mjmd Wrote: "Under the current rules Joshy would be first in turn order because when the settler race was discovered Joshy was first. However, Joshy double moved T97 into T98 (the turn of discovery). We feel that this is unfair and a clear example of how the current rule set is broken. We propose a lurker flip a coin to determine turn order."
So i thought the coint flip has already been flipped and hence decided that i go first before bellarch and hence its my city? If it hasnt been flipped and the lurkers thiink its unfair that I get the city since I was first to play in the turn, im happy for a coin toss.
(August 23rd, 2021, 12:57)civac2 Wrote: It has been decided by the lurkers that you played first and thus get to settle the city. You can ignore bellarch's proposal if you want.
Ignore him I shall, thanks for all the responses civac.
The game was paused to give time for lurgers to decide who gets RiceCity, and also to investigate who gets which turn split, and then restarted. Partly my fault since i was logged in for a long time. Sorry guys!
I ask you this, imagine the worst possible thing that could have happened to my civilization? what did you imagine? Did you imagine JesseL being crazy, attacking me just because I took the gems? If you did then youre right. As I was sending reinforcements to the future DyeCity since vanrober has so many troops in the area, JesseL took advantage of that and took GemCity. We are at war and PB59 is dooming over me. The only saving grace is that I was able to get iron, and connect it quickly and now can build praetoreans.
He sloughtered my only axe in the city with 4 chariots, and this turn moved up with some axes. This is a setback but im not toooooo worried. Luckily we were able to get the second turn split in the war and can whip out praets to defend. If JesseL wants to take CornCity then its we're good since I can easily defend it. I have positioned chariots at a distance so its not easily seen but can reinforce next turn. Also have a praet coming and 2 axes, should be easy. The problem is if he decides to be a madman and just wonder around my empire wrecking havoc, hopefully this doesnt happen and i can pull some units together to defend the other cities. Chopping all the remaining trees for praets, and whipping where i can get a 2 pop whip. So not code red yet.
Was also able to win the race for RiceCity and beat Vanrober to DyeCity. However this does mean that they both probably hate me now, so all my neighbours hate me which is fine aslong as I retain my power ranking and noone decides to gang up on me. I sent a gold for gem request for bellarch which he accepted, and also kept my borders open, while vanrober asked everyone to stop trading with him since he has GLH. Hopefully this means were kinda friends and wont dogpile against me before i can get defences. I have also made sure not to build any roads towards bellarchs border to show I don't intend on attacking him, he's done the same so far which is a good sign. Vanrober will absolutely hate me when he sees that ive settled all 3 locations and hes got a lot of units in the area. If he decides to attack me alonside JesseL then its possible that i will lose the game, or seet me back so far that I wont win. However i know vanrober is somewhat peaceful, I know hes been trying to catch up in cities and has concentrated on expansion rather than military and I hope he isnt prepared to attack me anytime soon. Will be sure to send some praets in the area as soon as I have dealt with the enemies in my lands.
Have also saved up enough gold to get construction in 3/4 turns so that will help keep people away and crush JesseL before the others can make an army.
Chopped moai statues as much as I can and will be done in 7 turns. Romes forum will be done in 3 turns and then can build scientists and praets, maybe a couple extra workers.
Rekenner has declared war in Bing again, think this is a way of him giving up and getting out of the game quicker. If Vanrober was to attack someone I hope its backstab rekenner, since hes given up already. But I think he still has many good spots to settle and getting in a war wont be smart. But just to make sure I offered him the deal attack JesseL and copper for copper. Hopefully he realises that he has far better options to expand than to start a war with me over junlge cities. I wouldn't like to give away Jessels cities but willing to give a few for 10 turns of friendship and peace of mind.
Dont think bellarch can bitch about the RiceCity spot either, hes pretty much got all of the other central jungle area all to himself.
Thats all i have for now, hopefully this wont be a repeat of what happened in PB59.
It looks like Vanrober might be joining Jesse in the attack on us, angered by our city at the bananas. His stack is ominously sitting and he's waiting for Joshy to play. We can still win in that world, but I think it's a lot less likely, and we're probably playing for fun afterwards.
I had been going to post anyway around now, and I'll get something much more detailed out soon (few days, maybe), talking about our game and the other greens. I think we've done a few things well and a few things pretty badly in the last 15-20 turns. What I did want to say before he moves, is that I think we were too greedy in our jungle settlements, and vanrober should attack us now. So should bellarch, in all honesty. I obviously hope he does not, but I think it would be a mistake for him not to. Greed should be punished!
Edit: I've just had a thought. Vanrober asked us to cancel OB with Bellarch last turn, when he moved those units. Could that stack be a threat, or the 'stick?' Vanrober doesn't strike me as someone to attack us on the same turn as we honour a request of his, although this is a pretty weird way of going about it, so maybe I'm crazy. We could cancel this turn, see if Vanrober attacks, and if he does reoffer with bellarch next turn. Might stave off an attack (big win, small chance) or might piss off a neighbour (big loss, small chance). Thoughts, joshy?
So ok, yesterday you imagined the worst think that could have possibly happened. Today I ask you again, imagine what could be even worse than JesseL attacking me? What would ruin my day even more? Thats right, you guessed it, Vanrober joining in the attack.
He hasnt declared war yet but I log in and see this:
Its clear he was waiting for me all day to play, I log in and this. His city has a border pop, now i understand why all these units were here. Also I remember earlier when i offered silver for gold, and he rejected my offer so it makes me think he was planning this move from the very beggining, even before i settled the jungle. A little upsetting since we played together in the last PB and now immediately tries to take me out. Also upsetting that he has so many better options than going to war with me. Attacking free Jessel's cities in the back which are undefended, attacking rekenner who is at war already and has whipped all his cities to nothing, settling all the free spots around his empire which he has plenty off because his neighbours havent settled as much. I would understand if he thinks im a bad player but everyone is new here, I also dont think im the strongest in the game, Jack or bellarch is ahead i believe especially since im already at war. 2 large civs will stun us the growth of both of us, and put bellarch and jack even further ahead. So im just confused by his decision. Doesnt make sence no matter how i look at it. Can anyone explain? Some sort of spite?
But hey ho, if he wants to fight then lets do it. I expect heavy losses, and a lot of sacrifice.
Luckily i somewhat prepared and put my chariots in position, so it will be my 3 axes, 2 chariots and a spear against his 5 axes, 1 chariot and 1 spear, so thats a 50% chance i lose the city, and even less if theres units in the fog. 5% chance i lose corn city. But doing this also means jessel will take DyeCity, because he moved all his chariots towards it. I will trade evacuate the defending axe and just let him take the city, i have no way to defend it.
Jessel has also landed near marble city, so was forced to quick whip some spears.
If things were getting hot before, theyre definitely getting hot now. Dont think im in too much crap at this moment. Should be able to defend this wave. Will have 5 praetorians next turn. Construction in 4 turns. However Vanrober and JesseL together will definitely be able to outproduce me in the long run so i have to be very careful cost wise. Plan is to defend until cats come and then try to take back some of my lost cities. And pray bellarch doesnt join in the fun.
Amicalola suggest i cancel my ob deal with bellarch and maybe he doesnt attack me but probs wont make a difference.
(August 25th, 2021, 16:35)joshybravo963 Wrote: So im just confused by his decision. Doesnt make sence no matter how i look at it. Can anyone explain? Some sort of spite?
But hey ho, if he wants to fight then lets do it. I expect heavy losses, and a lot of sacrifice.
So, since I'm your dedlurker, I should probably have a go at explaining this. I think if (when?) Vanrober attacks, it's not as a long-term attempt to split us with Jesse or Bellarch, as that would likely end badly for him due to the map layout and our praets. My hope is that he is just after those cities and would not push further.
Regardless, I think the attack is probably prompted by our settling of the jungle, in terms of both the cities themselves, and their location. Take BananaCity as the best example - we have not left vanrober any way to settle himself, and thus he is presumably upset. Sticking with the BananaCity example, we could have settled 1N of the current location (my original planned spot), or even 2N (might have been best). The latter would leave us with a strong city, and vanrober an option to settle the southern bananas. Obviously he gets stronger in this outcome, but humans are not AIs, and they will get mad if you take something they perceive as 'theirs.' So you need to either leave them a compromise, or be strong enough that they can't do anything about it.
I think there is a very relevant case from PB60 (maybe spoilers):
Our attack on Lazteuq was initially prompted by a forward city's location. Lazteuq needlessly settled a city 1S of where we expected (and would have accepted), which locked us out of settling our own city nearby. Sure, his new city was slightly better than it could have been by settling 1N (in this case with an additional 2nd-ring clams), but the '1N' spot would still have gotten rice, gems, and deer - hardly a bad city. He might have been expecting us to "get over it," which would work against an AI, but we couldn't accept the border he created and resolved to create a better one, by capturing his city. I think with hindsight Laz would have preferred the 'compromise spot' to the invasion.
I see this situation as very similar, except we're Lazteuq. By settling 2N we could have claimed bananas/dye while leaving vanrober room for a 'compromise' city. When taking that role (common with IMP), you need to either leave other players enough room to 'compromise' (even if the result is favourable to you overall. It is their perception that matters), or have a strong enough military to defend those aggressive plants. Lazteuq did neither in PB60, and we did neither here. If I was vanrober I would definitely attack us, and I think that is the correct move for him in this situation.
So lurkers, does my explanation make remotely any sense?
I mean I guess, I just never thought of starting a war to raize a city and building your own in the same spot is a good idea. If I have nowhere else to expand, if I've got noone better to attack then yes sure. I just don't see how that's better than attacking empty Jessels cities or building cities of your own. His neighbour has 4 cities, I'm sure there's space for him to expand to. Bellarch took our marble spot earlier, I don't go declaring war instantly. But whatever I will probs never understand.
This will be a set back for sure but not huge. Gloves on, let's fight
(August 26th, 2021, 01:40)joshybravo963 Wrote: I mean I guess, I just never thought of starting a war to raize a city and building your own in the same spot is a good idea. If I have nowhere else to expand, if I've got noone better to attack then yes sure. I just don't see how that's better than attacking empty Jessels cities or building cities of your own. His neighbour has 4 cities, I'm sure there's space for him to expand to. Bellarch took our marble spot earlier, I don't go declaring war instantly. But whatever I will probs never understand.
This will be a set back for sure but not huge. Gloves on, let's fight
That's a fair point, but I'm not sure that it's quite accurate. I think the difference is that we didn't attack because we couldn't (as opposed to 'didn't want to'), while Vanrober's troops were already in the area. In fact, we specifically sent an axe over to the marble spot on the off-chance we could raze it and settle our own city there - it just turned out that that bellarch had enough defenders to stop our troops. That we lack enough defenders to stop vanrober's troops is the difference, in my opinion.
I don't mean any of this as criticism, for what it's worth. I'm just trying to help you understand the attack, because it's a lot more fun to fight people when their motives make sense.
T113
Joshy is away for another week, and I am subbing. Going to try and report this. We're at war, the demos are bad, and going to get worse before they get better.
Vanrober didn't attack us. Either my guess was correct and he was threatening us, or he decided not to for another reason. But that's very good news.
I'm going to take a leaf out of the Pindicator playbook and whip to the ground. Let's see if I've learned anything. Here are the main stacks.
We have praetorians streaming in, but we'll need catapults to do anything beyond capture GemCity. Maybe even retaking that requires them, depending on what Jesse does.
Speaking of which, I'm very grumpy: I had managed o get Construction to 1 turn at exactly breakeven (with 0 gold) with a couple of wealth builds, but for some reason the costs increased by 1 when I hit end turn (city growing into maintenance, maybe? I thought that was processed afterwards), and we didn't finish Construction. So all of my city micro is instantly ruined.
I obviously hope he does not, but I think it would be a mistake for him not to. Greed should be punished! 
