[PB62] naufragar and Rusten earn their wage in rostygold

[naufragar]

As expected, Mjmd moved to get a big old boost to his income.


If I were him, I'd also try and settle somewhere around where the Pyramids used to sit, but we'll see.

I'm burying the lede a bit though...


Surprise! The third incarnation of Wolfstad! Now, I hear you wondering, "naufragar, are you sure you should be settling this city before you settle for copper? naufragar, should you be settling this city at all?" Phooey, that's coward talk.

I've started shifting Shuttered Palace's garrison over to Wolfstad, so now it's defended from Superdeath's praetorians by good vibes alone. But we're putting out such a massive amount of good, happy vibes that there's absolutely no way Superdeath attacks us again.  In reality, I'm sort of hoping that Superdeath is either content to sit on his hands for the rest of the game or go out in a blaze of glory against Tarkac. Perhaps this isn't the most realistic hope, but c'mon. The guy tanked my game with a random, chaotic attack. Maybe he'll use that random chaotic energy for good, or at least not hurt me with it.

I wasn't showing all the battles of my most recent war with Mjmd, but trust me when I say that Mjmd got a ton of lucky victories, which will translate to highly promoted units. (You can see the c2 shock axe in the screenshot.) He might have also settled one of the great generals he got in the fighting. All this to say, it is very, very unlikely that we can hold Wolfstad if Mjmd really wants to attack when our peace treaty runs out. But will he? (Yes. Otherwise his stupid pink dot has no good tiles.)

But lurking in the back of Mjmd's mind, I hope, is that every wasted hammer and every whipped pop point that does nothing but damage me while gaining him nothing is another weight around his neck as Vanrober advances further past him. It's possible Mjmd has already given up on this game, but as with our hope of Superdeath's newfound pacifism, we must remain optimistic.

[Ginger()]

Lmfao the third time
https://youtu.be/rKMMCPeiQoc  

[naufragar]

Lmfao the third time
https://youtu.be/rKMMCPeiQoc  

Oh man, Far Cry 3's one of the best games ever made. Poor Vaas. And apparently because perfect narrative closure is like garlic to Ubisoft vampires, they've dug up Vaas' corpse for nostalgia dollars for Far Cry 6. Poor Vaas.

But in our civ4 game, I'm challenging Mjmd to fight me again.


Whoops. Wrong picture.




The number of C1 Shock axes means that Mjmd's got a barracks+Great General somewhere. I'd have to get lucky to hold the city, but hey, the wheel's got to turn sometime.

In the meanwhile, here's the power graph:


What, me worry?

[naufragar]

T88

If this game wasn't over, I would demand a reload because Nauf essentially double moved me to declare war. However, I just don't care enough. I could have prevented him from settling by a turn or at least pillaged the corn. What a dick move x2. I mean resettling it is hilarious in a PB62 game type of way (can we make this game a verb?), but the method for doing so, pure dick, which is definitely against the rules.

I doubt there's much appetite for a post mortem given how agonizing this game was, and I don't really feel like debating a bunch of what ifs. I tend to delete my screenshots folder after each Pitboss, since it can grow to the literal thousands, so I should put a record here in case people got the wrong idea from Mjmd's thread. Mjmd is talking about the (beautiful, perfect, hilarious) third founding of Wolfstad. You might be confused by his language of war, but we in fact have 7 more turns of enforced peace...

Here's the PB Spy from turn 85 when Mjmd accepted peace (city founded t88):


It's very misleading for Mjmd to claim I double-moved him turns 87 into 88, when he had literally double-moved me the turns before (86->87). I don't think Mjmd's intentionally trying to smear me. I just think he has a overly sensitive trigger for when feels he's been wronged. The turn order from t85 to t88 (in peacetime! without combat or settler races!) was M->N->N->M->M->N->N->M. We're playing the turns as we get to them. Mjmd double-moved me to pillage a road and then the very next turn was upset that he couldn't pillage an additional road because I double-moved him back. It's peace time in a sequential turns pitboss with people playing back to back turns when they roll the turn. I'm quite proud of my unimpeachable turn-order integrity.

[Mjmd]

Thoughts:

I said this in my thread, but I honestly gave very low odds you would risk war over Oak & Ash & Thorn wet corn. But gotta earn that most aggressive player title I guess by settling a contested border city while building the mids!   I thought it was either you or T/C winning and I didn't think you would want an early game war to drag you down.

Loved you doing power analysis first war and saying "he has no axes but he could whip some" nope none and NA. Also the lack of grans was due to researching archery well before I would ever normally have researched. If I hadn't been Mali this game I honestly would have just been screwed over by copper location.

I actually liked SD surprise attack and not just because I benefited. Seemed like a nice move by him to maybe get back into it. Obviously timing was awesome for me so I may be bias.

About the turn split I should have asked for a roll like I did with Van at end (also I was an idiot and thought your worker couldn't escape but I blame the mental state of that turn for that brain fart ). But it honestly didn't occur to me that you might also attack...... I had greater power at the time and if I hadn't been building chariots and had instead been building axes your stack would have disappeared a lot faster. I also thought you finishing farm was a sign of peaceful intent instead of a mistake, so I didn't think the war would go on longer than 2 turns lol, which is why I was ok taking first so fast in the discussion.

The mids raze was solely predicated on if I got open borders or not from Vanrober. And ya if you had gotten the uber spear in there I would have been in deep trouble. I had actually assumed the turn prior you had kept in capital assuming I could take. I admit to not running anything through Vodka.


The double move situations are completely different. I pillaged the road T86 and not T87 and had no knowledge if you were going to use. I just wanted to make it harder for you to pillage the farm (I messed up with axes and should have been pillaging just everything with them on way back and sent skrim around other way). You saw my units there and they could have delayed your settler and obviously I could have pillaged a major tile beforehand. If it was just the delay it would be very minor, but taking a major food source away that we had twice fought over is an act of war and you can't double move into war. It was hilarious idea though.

[naufragar]

I said this in my thread, but I honestly gave very low odds you would risk war over Oak & Ash & Thorn wet corn.

You mean Wolfstad's corn?

I'm only a couple of pages into Vanrober's thread, but I suspect neither he nor I have a problem with where you founded OakAshThorn. Yeah, I know that flies in the face of some of what people are saying in your thread, but our problem was never the placement of the city, it was you burning our cities to keep the whole BFC. The fact that you frame Wolfstad as risking war and Vanrober's city (Boron?) as a declaration of war is very telling. After you invaded each of us and burned our cities, we just resettled them a couple turns after peace. OakAshThorn was placed in such a way that you could never secure food for it without 1) Stonehenge 2) other cities closer to the food 3) grinding ancient era war. I think in your thread you mentioned Stonehenge for the failgold, but it was a genuine option, I think. #2 wasn't economically viable and #3 shouldn't work. Attacking in the ancient era against a fortified defender with cultural defenses requires something like 2-1 superiority. If I had played first on turn 54 and got my spear inside in time, I don't think you would've been able to take Wolfstad the whole game. Likewise whenever Superdeath attacked, although that's more debatable. If not for these two things, which were completely out of your control, you would've lost the 6f tile.

You seemed to be gearing up for war when Vanrober re-founded Boron, and I haven't read enough to know who had the advantage there, but Vanrober had higher total power and was the defender, so I suspect he would've been able to hold the city. Basically, as far as your own moves go, you would not have been able to prevent Vanrober and me from taking the food around OakAshThorn, so I had no problem with the city. My problem was that you felt committed to mutually destructive war because of it. Again, you phrase Vanrober and my city sites as declarations of war, but both of our city spots naturally had two food resource tiles and lots of grassland and were generally excellent on their own. You were the one committing to war because otherwise OakAshThorn is a massive weight around your neck. I think the way you phrase your question in the tech thread was about OakAshThorn being a "controversial" spot. Who knows? More relevantly, it was weak and sucked you into war when your neighbors didn't submit to it.

I don't know much about your and Vanrober's strategic situation, and I haven't read far enough in his thread to know if he was planning something with a triple fork. The area looks defensible to me. He's not taking any of your cities without catapults, at which point, he doesn't need to fork anybody. More importantly, if a neighbor founding a city to share their capital's food causes your dotmap to fall apart, the problem is probably the dotmap not the neighbor.

[Mjmd]

I mean if I had copper just a lot of axes also could have destroyed the first Wolfstad as well. Imagine a world where some of that lake isn't there and there was a safe hill spot you could have taken the corn from 2 tiles back. That is a safe spot. Wolfstad grabbed what a total of 2 new tiles including the corn? In my head I thought there was no way you wouldn't expand literally any other direction. You had just taken a capital, probably building mids, and I assumed could expand NE, NW, W, or even SW. Now your land was pretty bad, but I didn't know that lol. Mind you you still had a 2 food ivory spot you could have settled instead (or a wet wheat fur). In any case to me at the time without knowing your land, it didn't seem likely that you would.

I wasn't gearing up for war with Vanrober when he refounded Baron I was trying to get enough random units to kick your small stack out lol. Its hard without copper. Then once he built power yes I had to figure out a way around that situation, which was why I built soo many chariots (to you know go around hehe). Then you kept refusing peace, so I used them on you   .

I think I've defended my placement as far as the Vanrober border enough in my own thread, but it was specifically because of that border that I didn't 1st ring the corn.

[civac2]

I don't want to comment on the wisdom of settling OAT but I do agree with Mjmd that settling Wolfstad was strategically unsound. You (naufragar) were in such a strong position that more conservative play was sufficient to have a contender position.

It also seemed the Pyramids build was too early. They are quite strong on this map but also ungodly expensive in CTH. Using so much production and worker labor for them prevented you from expanding, building military and cottaging your land.

[naufragar]

It also seemed the Pyramids build was too early. They are quite strong on this map but also ungodly expensive in CTH. Using so much production and worker labor for them prevented you from expanding, building military and cottaging your land.

Hey Rusten! You hear that? Someone else thinks the Pyramids suck!

[civac2]

It's interesting that Rusten can slip up. That was not known previously.