[PB66] Tarkeel and civac explore the untamed wilds

[Tarkeel]

That's a very aquatic start. If the fog is to be trusted, we're on the corner of a landmass with water north and west, while the southeast is a lake. Might be limited amounts of options for second city. Zara Yaqob (CRE/ORG) might actually be a very good pick here.

Top choices for civs, in no particular order:

• Rome; Fishing/Mining are the perfect start techs, and the Praetorians don't need an introduction.
  
• China; Agriculture/Mining is almost as good, and the cho-ko-nu are best on a watery map.
  
• Netherlands; Agriculture/Fishing is good start techs, and they rule the waters.
  
• Vikings; Fishing/Hunting is slightly suboptimal, but should still work, and they also rule the waters (but earlier than Netherlands).
  
• Spain; Fishing/Mysticism isn't the most optimal techs, but with 12 players having a religion might be worthwhile.
  
• Germany; Hunting/Mining are the worst start techs on the list, but bulbing Chemistry for Riesengarde is better on a watery map
  

[Tarkeel]

I expect the map to be something like PB57 or PB63; one large landmass with loads of larger bodies of water, and a handful of islands thrown in.

We did talk about going for a beeline towards Great Lighthouse, which would mean a techpath something like this: Fishing/Agriculture/Mining to start (and research the missing), then BronzeWorking, AnimalHusbandry and TheWheel for worker techs. Then onto Sailing and Masonry. Based on earlier games, that should be TGL in the early 60s, which would probably be fast enough. We could then take Pottery and MetalCasting and try for Colossus as well, like PB58.

The best civ for this approach is actually Rome, as Fishing/Mining are the most expensive starting techs needed. Of the remaining civs with this combo, Portugal is right out, and Carthage really wants EXP for those Cothons while England is solid but boring. Civac really wants a civ with an economic boost, and I agree that in a 12-player field the effect of pure military is lessened.

Updated shortlist:

• England for the Great Lighthouse rush, and lategame staying power.
  
• Netherlands for water supremacy, and decent enough techs for TGL.
  
• Germany for lategame staying power.
  
• Spain has worse techs but lategame staying power, economic as well as military through Citadels.
  

Germany and Spain are unlikely to be picked, but I don't expect England or Netherlands to last, so it's now or never. Pick coming soon...

[Tarkeel]

In the end we went for a leader first, confident that one of Spain or Germany is likely to pass through. Carthage and Ottomans would also be fine to play. We felt that Netherlands was too slow starting and too obvious gameplan that's easily foiled, and England is a bit on the boring side.

[civac2]

As Tarkeel predicted both Germany and Spain were left unpicked.

Spain has the powerful Conquistador and minor synergy between EXP harbors and the extra trade route from citadels. All castles get the trade route but the citadel doesn't require walls, never obsoletes and is a little more valuable to build due to the extra EXP for ships. Sadly, the EXP for siege units likely doesn't matter but it's there.

Conversely, Germany would have brought the Riesengarde which shines on water maps as Chemistry is vital anyway and siege units do not dominate warfare unlike land maps. Faster factories are also interesting as production is even more important in watery environments. We picked ORG over Fin in part to enable a Germany follow-up.

Plans were to go for a religion immediatly with Spain and attempt the GLH with Germany. Ultimately, I was too risk-averse to try for the GLH. Both Plemo/Picadilly (Rome pick) and Jack (Carthage, ORG/PRO) appeared to be interested in the wonder as well. Tarkeel did not have strong feelings either way so we settled on Spain. Spain can almost guarantee getting the religion since noone else has both Mysticism and Fishing. With 12 players the upside should be high enough.

[Tarkeel]

This was a very tough decision between Germany and Spain, with different plans for them.

Germany, starting with Hunting/Mining, would likely research Fishing while building the workboat on the plainshill, before rushing towards the Great Lighthouse. Riesengarde would likely be a great UU for the map, and I've been wanting to see how good the early factory is in practice.

Spain, starting with Fishing/Mysticism, would probably go for an early religion while building two workboats and a worker. We could then leverage the early religion into Oracle if it we can find the production.

In the end it came down to Spain being slightly earlier and more certain to land religion than Germany is to land TGL. The only direct competitor for religion is HRE, and while we're certain they will target religionthey don't start with Fishing. Both Carthage and Rome can beat us to TGL with their better starting techs if they so chose, and we find it likely that Piccadilly&Plemo will target it. There's also Amicalola and Superdeath that love building it. Normally I'd try to avoid re-playing the same civ, but I don't think PB62 counts in that regard.

We wanted EXP for the new circumnavigation-powered harbors (as well as the usual granary pump), and paired it with ORG mainly in anticipation of Germany. PRO for better trade routes might have been better with Spain, but ORG will still be very useful on a watery map.

[Tarkeel]

Final picks, before it becomes hard to find. Thoughts to follow.

1. Piccadilly + plemo - Tokugawa (AGG/PRO) of Rome
2. Amicalola - Washington (CHA/EXP) of Khmer
3. Gavagai - Suryavarman (CRE/EXP) of Aztec
4. Tarkeel + civac - Mehmed (EXP/ORG) of Spain
5. Mjmd - Julius Caesar (IMP/ORG) of Zulu
6. Superdeath - Hammurabi (AGG/ORG) of Vikings
7. GeneralKillCavalry - Kublai Khan (AGG/CRE) of America
8. Alhazard - Napoleon (CHA/ORG) of Egypt
9. Miguelito + Ginger - Asoka (ORG/SPI) of The Holy Roman Empire
10. Vanrober - Zara Yaqob (ORG/CRE) of Mongolia
11. Magic Science - Sulieman (IMP/PHI) of Greece
12. JackRB - Lieu-Ye (Org/Pro) of Carthage

[Tarkeel]

Opponent analysis, expecting the map to be something like PB57/PB63.

12: JackRB - Lieu-Ye (Org/Pro) of Carthage
Jack is back for his third game, putting up a good show in both previous game. I don't expect anything spectacular from him, neither positive nor negative. He seems to lose focus at times, but did manage to fend off Superdeath's invasion in PB63.
This is Amicalola's winning pick from PB60, and on paper it sounds good. Lieu-Ye is perhaps the best early-game economic leader, and Carthage's Cothon UB can be great on a watery map. It's a very slow starting combo and I'd rather have Mao (EXP/PRO) both for the Cothon but also granaries. I don't think this game will give Jack the room and time to develop.
EverQuest Race: Halfling


11: GeneralKillCavalry - Kublai Khan (AGG/CRE) of America
It's hard to get a good feeling of where GKC is these days, as his last games were criminally underreported. He seems to have an issue with staying focused for the longer games though.
I can't really see what he's trying to pull of with that combo, unless he thinks we're playing with the American Armory from RtR, for which Kublai is an excellent leader. Kublai should be able to bully around in the early game, but this doesn't have a lasting economic advantage.
EverQuest Race: Ogre


10: Vanrober - Zara Yaqob (ORG/CRE) of Mongolia
Vanrober is a competent player, and despite trying to paint himself of as "almost green", he practically sharked the PB61 greens game and was a frontrunner in PB62.
I expect Zara to be a good leader for this game, as coastlines force extra constraints on your dotmap. Not sure what the plan for combining him with Mongolia is, and I expect his closest neighbors to neuter the threat before Keshiks.
EverQuest Race: Wood Elf


9: Alhazard - Napoleon (CHA/ORG) of Egypt
Alhazard is a returning old-timer, and I can't recall ever reading one of his games, so this should be interesting.
Egypt is a classic early-game powerhorse, and while Napoleon can be a solid leader there's no obvious synergy here.
EverQuest Race: Human


8: Magic Science - Suleiman (IMP/PHI) of Greece
Magic Science stepped in as caretaker for MrCairo in the twilight hours of PB63, and seems to have a detail oriented focus.
Suleiman is a powerful high-skill leader, and Greece can be quite the culture bully, but I don't see how these play well together.
EverQuest Race: Half Elf


7: Gavagai - Suryavarman (CRE/EXP) of Aztec
Gavagai is perhaps the most tenacious fighter I've seen, and is capable of extreme total warfare. He's also likely to carry a grudge over perceived slights.
Sury is a classic early leader, but Azteca really wants Asoka (ORG/SPI) to shine.
EverQuest Race: Dark Elf


6. Superdeath - Hammurabi (AGG/ORG) of Vikings
As one of the most impulsive players around, Superdeath usually does better than you'd think with the low effort for each game. He's got pretty good instincts and complete lack of respect for the odds. If he feels you're vulnerable or otherwise deserving, he will attack.
For once he's got a combo that I could have played as well. I expect the Vikings to be fearsome on this map, and while AGG might be overkill ORG will be essential.
EverQuest Race: Barbarian


5. Amicalola - Washington (CHA/EXP) of Khmer
Amicalola is one of the better active players, if he can stay out of his own head. Morale is a clear weakness and he can be prone to tilting and doomsaying, but seems to have this more under control now.
The combo screams of early granaries and whipping, and it will be interesting to see if this can power through. Cheaper harbors will help keep the economy alive.
EverQuest Race: Halfling


4. Mjmd - Julius Caesar (IMP/ORG) of Zulu
Mjmd is another solid player that's good at micro, but might lack a but on the macro end.
Julius has become one of my favorite leaders in CtH; IMP gives you a lead in cities and ORG lets you pay for it. Zulu would be better with AGG to bolster  Impis and cheaper Ikhanda, but this combo looks frightful.
EverQuest Race: High Elf


3. Miguelito + Ginger - Asoka (ORG/SPI) of The Holy Roman Empire
Both of the players are very detail oriented, so I expect good things if they can avoid stepping on each others toes.
Their combo screams of religion play, and I think they have the chops to pull it off. Would try to split atleast some of the monk wonders off them.
EverQuest Race: Erudite


2. Tarkeel + civac - Mehmed (EXP/ORG) of Spain
I think we have very complimentary skills, with civac being the micro-master and me better at macro analysis, and we've had good discussions.
We have a reasonably fast but very economic loaded combo; the game plan is to combine harbors and citadels for loads of traderoute income.
EverQuest Race: Dwarf


1. Piccadilly + plemo - Tokugawa (AGG/PRO) of Rome
I haven't read enough of the german games to fully appreciate these players, but I gather they're both very good.
Their combo is also one of the better; Rome is great at carving out a sizeable empire and PRO should help pay for it. Personally I think AGG is overkill for Rome, but it sure is scary.
EverQuest Race: Gnome

[civac2]

Picadilly has the reputation of being a builder type who is insufficiently aggressive and also doesn't make enough units in general. I can't say for sure how deserved that is. His PB 59 game supports the assessment. PB 59 also showed that he is very good at building. Plemo is in theory relatively inexperienced having played only 4 PBs to the end. Thing about that is though that he won all 4 of these games inculding the 52 player world map PB (PB88). He is extemely detail-oriented. One of those people who do 2-3 hour turns deep into the game. Also very decisive, if he goes for a course of action he really goes for it. Overall, an OH-type monster.

I disagree with Tarkeel with regards to their combo. AGG adds a lot to a praetorian war, both by enabling easy shock promotions and allowing construction of barracks in every city or nearly every city. AGG in general is quite good on naval maps. The combined effects of buffed AGG and PRO also give a serious economic edge. Among other things the Roman forum profits from a 50% production bonus. Their combo is excellent.

[Tarkeel]

Turn 0 (4000 BC) Landfall
We sent the scout down to the hill just to make sure there wasn't a reason to move there. We did find a pig, but not enough reason to move.


Scout plan is to circle the lake for potential city sites; so far 3S and 3E looks promising. That bay to the west looks very intersting too; I wonder if the peak in the fog will block access that way. We'll know once borders pop.

Research is set for Meditation, and C&D reveals that Mig/Ging isn't working enough commerce to beat us to it.



Kaladim is located on the southwest of Faydwer, and is home to the dwarves and their king Kazon Stormhammer.

[Tarkeel]

So, I was a complete bozo last turn, and managed to leave our single pop as a citizen instead of working the 1/3/0 ivory. I wouldn't ask for a reload/fix for something like this later on, but in the opening move it's really deal. Not sure if this is something Ramk can fix himself; if not I'd like to ask for a reload to GKC's logout.

Edit: We're missing 1 food and 2 hammers because of my