[PB65 - Cornflakes] Rising from the Ashes

[Cornflakes]

Pindicator and MJMD moved in a combined stack of 22 cats and 33 hitters by my count, about half War Elephants, half of the remainder longbows, and a few axes, spears … and a warrior no knights yet from either and since they are advancing along the hills towards Money their knights can’t join up with their main force. They both can still get knights in range of Money when their stacks can hit but the knights would then be on separate tiles and exposed.

No visible stacks from SD yet although the power graph shows that he has rebuilt the equivalent of the 15 Cataphracts that I wiped out 10 turns ago. So I could be facing 30 Cataphracts in the east. My sentry didn’t find anything within 1 turn of my border from the SAC northeasterly direction so any immediate threat would be staging for Gross Profit.

I am 95% confident that I can hold on both fronts. The Pindicator and MJMD attack threatening my core is the immediate threat towards my most valuable cities so I am going to smash that ASAP. I moved my Camel Archer stack a tile further west where I can’t get to the Superdeath border in 2 turns anymore but I can strike the Pindicator/MJMD attack next turn, and then wheel my knights back into a central position hopefully before Superdeath can take advantage of any opening in the east. I have an equivalent number of catapults to Pindi+MJMD and 20 knights should be able to flank away most of their catapults and neutralize that stack.

However since I’m sooooo close to invincibility and domination I offered Pindicator 100 gpt for peace. Basically I’m offering 1/2 Renaissance tech (over 10 turns) to be able to complete my Golden Age + Rifling + Cavalry + pump out 5 turns of Police State production and drafting of Rifles. Well worth the investment at this point. Basically my shrine would be paying off Pindi for 10 turns if he accepts. Why Pindi and not MJMD? Well Pindicator has the most awkward attack vector and the least to gain other than taking me down, basically he has no claim to spoils. Therefore the offer of 1000 gold might be enough to persuade him to abandon the dogpile.

[Cornflakes]

Whew, what a turn!  I think victory is ours

Pindicator did not take the 100 gpt offered for peace... instead his stack of 34 units:

   

Is dead, totally slaughtered at the cost of 10 catapults and 2 Camel Archers

I had 2 pikes to spare, having dealt the beautiful final blow with my GG morale supermedic:

   

I sent in 8 spare catapults after I was already getting 99% retreat odds so that I could whittle his last half dozen catapults down to the point where I could flank them all away. Those spare catapults combined with March + Supermedic healing ensure security on this front. MJMD either high tails it out or gets destroyed.

On the Superdeath front:

   

   

Superdeath brought catapults this time 18 is a scary amount, and he still managed over 30 Cataphracts. This is going to be close but I think with some finesse I will be able to hold. The key here is stalling for time. I'm not going to throw away all my catapults in an attack out, instead preserving numbers. All I have to do now is wear down superdeath's forces and outlast him. Absolute worst case scenario Gross Profit acts as the lightning rod and gets sacrificed to diffuse the energy of SD's attack. I have enough bulk to hold GP for 2 turns at least, and My Camel Archers can return east in 3 turns so I'll certainly be able to stop any bleeding without further damage.

   

   

My catapults were targeting his (three) Formation Cataphracts. Therefore I sent in three catapults which each managed to get at least 1 hit in, giving my 10 formation knights 70% odds against his C2 Cataphracts!!! I won 8 of 10, or one more than expected. And I could have stopped before sending in my last but couldn't resists. I was nowhere near flanking the catapults to death but the fact that I eliminated 8 Cataphracts this turn which would have been guaranteed wins for him next turn after hitting me with catapults is huge! Even after taking his catapult barrage I should be able to kill 8-10 on defense. I think that the numbers in the meat grinder are in my favor and I'll be able to hold.

And now the cherry on top of the turn:

   

Taj Mahal Depending on how the Superdeath attack goes I may swap into Nationhood + Police State immediately next turn in order to draft a couple muskets as emergency defenders. That will slow Rifling + Military Science by a few turns but at this point I think victory is assured.

[Cornflakes]

We managed two turns yesterday and still got our normal turn this morning And it was another smashing success! Camel Archers with a supermedic are underrated! After beating down Pindicator last turn, nearly all of my Camel Archers were back at or close to full health and ready to immediately whack MJMD who advanced the Catapult/War Elephant stack AND a sizeable knight stack I now had a choice, I have enough units to attack and kill one stack or the other, but not both. There were advantages and risks for each.

   

Cat/WE stack: The War Elephants counter my Camel Archers and therefore I will need to soften with catapults, meaning I can't also strike the Knight stack on the same turn. The advantage of taking out this stack is that all victorious units will remain inside the city, guaranteeing that I have enough units to hold the city against his Knight stack. Without Catapults his Knight stack is too weak to proceed, and thus by killing the catapult stack I would guarantee success in the immediate-term. The downside though is that MJMD gets to preserve a large knight stack to retreat and fight another day.

Knight Stack: This is the more valuable stack for MJMD from a pure production standpoint as well as mobility and flexibility. If I take this stack out, MJMD's threat is completely neutralized for a long time. There are not catapults to soak collateral so I'll be able to damage the stack sufficient to have great odds with all my Camel Archers. The risk is that all my victorious Camel Archers will be outside the city, meaning that MJMD's WE/Cat stack can hit with full force anything I leave behind. MJMD has 17 hitters total consisting of 11 WE, 5 axes, 1 impi. I don't have enough material to completely wipe his knight stack AND stuff Money with more defenders than he has attackers. Thus I will have to trust my defenders to at least kill a few of MJMD's attackers.

This is where the Nationalism research and Taj rush timing really shined! By swapping into Nationhood I can draft Money and the Decision Makers for 2 additional musket defenders. Money has enough production to complete a musket EOT as well, so that's 3 strong defenders which although not perfect counters to WE have higher base strength and should (even after taking collateral damage) have enough strength with the castle bonus to have >50% odds on defense. It hurts to draft muskets instead of Rifles but it will give me just the edge that I need to ensure that I prevail. My plan is to draft the maximum allowed 3/turn until the next civics swap is available in 5 turns, then assuming the invaders are repulsed I'll swap to either Vassalage or Bureaucracy. Probably the latter and use the 50% production bonus to maximize unit production since Theocracy already gets me to the 2nd promotion on everything.

And now for the battle ... er, slaughter 

   

After sending in all 8 catapults I faced >80% odds on all battles and >90% on most since about a quarter of my Camel Archers were veterans able to take Formation after their previous engagements. Again, the March promotion shines brightly in this story since my knights would otherwise be around half health after defeating Pindicator last turn. Instead I had half my Camel Archers at full health, and the other half around 9.0/10. By attacking from my strongest to weakest I was able to maintain favorable matchups as my wounded CA at the bottom of my stack were still stronger than his knights that rolled heavier on the collateral damage. I used a couple pikes as well but ultimately had to make the decision at some point to halt the slaughter and preserve defenders in Money. I may lose a couple further units to prom-heal attacks but this was another smashing success 14 dead knights at the cost of 8 catapults, 1 pike, and 1 Camel Archer. Something like 3 impi and 3 redlined knights remained.

   

Here are the defenders of Money highlighted. At the very top, just barely visible through the blue interface (just below the "Renaissance Era" text) you can see a Morale Musket that I drafted at Monitor and moved in for an extra ounce of defense. I am only short one or two defenders to outnumber MJMD's WE stack and have 5 full-health muskets present (after completing one at end of turn). So as long as I don't roll absolutely atrociously I should be golden here in the west. In the east, Superdeath decided to spend a turn bombarding ... at 2% per catapult  leaving my castle walls at 64% health after 18 catapult hits. March promo shined here as well, since 5 of my Camel Archers were fully healed up from last turn's attacks and ready to knock off a further set of Practs! I followed the same finesse strategy as last turn, sending in just 1 catapult that was targeting his Formation knight then taking the 70% battles with my Formation CA vs. his C2 Cataphracts. After killing 5 more and losing just 1 CA, Superdeath is now down to just 22 Phracts and rapidly losing momentum. I have 2 turns worth of defender bulk, and will be drafting in the east next turn, and continuing to draft as long as needed to repulse this attack. If he bombards for one more turn and gives me another shot at his Phracts I'll have his stack whittled down even further. I think his only option is to attack and hope for spectacular rolls, but even still I think I'll have enough catapults and healing on defense to wipe out his stack in a counter-attack afterwards.

   

   

Power graph after the turn roll which includes Pindicator's stack loss and 1 turn of SD bleeding, but not MJMD's or the 2nd turn of SD bleeding. Nearly every city of mine completed a musket this turn, plus the 3 drafted during the turn, which game me that spike upwards while my enemies are all declining

   

   

Demographics after the turn roll are dominant. Production of 563 * 1.25 (Police State) = 703! I'll build an average of 5 Camel Archers per turn plus a few Catapults out of my lower production cities. The goal will be to absorb India, which will demoralize MJMD, and then push through Superdeath's north once Rifles are in play to counter Cataphracts in the field. This will open up a 2nd front with Pindicator and force the concession.

[Cornflakes]

SD attacked with all his catapults and 20 Cataphracts. I did about as good as expected and my defenders still outnumber his now heavily damaged and catapult-less attackers. It looks like a few fresh Phract reinforcements joined and are covering the wounded but I have 8 or so catapults that can chip those down and then I should be able to wipe out his entire force for little cost beyond the catapults. Unfortunately my (regular) medic was killed so my camel archers will only be around 7/10 strength, but that’s better than 5/10!

[Cornflakes]

The Superdeath front carnage on defense:

   

Absorbed all his catapults and then traded equally after that, except his losses were Cataphracts while mine were Pikes, a musket, and a longbow.

   

   

His remaining forces are no match for mine. This screenshot was before my Camel Archers healed at the start of my turn. I had a fresh C2/Formation Camel Archer out of my HE to clear SD's top defender, and then all my battles vs. his Cataphracts were in the 85-95% range. I had a few lower odds battles vs. his axes and spears, but mostly I was just taking battles when I could get them >85%. I didn't throw my catapults all in at the beginning. Instead I used my healthiest units first which had good odds vs. his battered defenders, then as I got down to my more injured units I'd throw in a catapult or two until the top defender was down to where I could take a >85% battle. In this way I feel like I maximized my effective collateral damage. I wasn't able to kill everything but he's down to a half dozen or so total, and just a couple Cataphracts. My obsolete axemen and crossbows actually shined this turn as they were consistently targeting his wounded Cataphracts at high odds while my wounded Camel Archers were getting spears as top defenders. After clearing a bunch of redlined Cataphracts with my axes and crossbows I was able to use a few catapults with great effect to soften his spears.

On the MJMD front:

   

He tried a last-ditch attack instead of withdrawing, and barely achieved anything. The only major loss on my end was the Morale musket and a single Camel Archer. He did earn a Great General so I need to beware of a Morale knight attack at Monitor which can be reached from his border. On my turn I annihilated his survivors including a potentially rash attack against the 8 or so redlined units that he withdrew 1NE of Grey Funnel Line. He could potentially wipe out those exposed Camel Archers next turn at little risk. After this string of incredible slaughter vs. all my enemies I just couldn't resist this final blow.

Power graph, including the losses of my enemies on their turns, but not including their losses on my counter attack this turn ... meaning MJMD and Superdeath will have a further plunge next turn.

   

   

Pindicator fared the best, and now is fielding Minutemen which could be annoying on my border. Really the timing worked out perfectly for me. If they had waited 5 turns to kick off the attack Pindicator's Minutemen could have covered their advance, but I would have fielded at least 2 turns worth of Rifle draftees and a round of naturally built rifles everywhere. The Nationalism and Taj timing for civics swaps worked out beautifully. My pikemen and Formation Camel Archers beautifully countered Cataphracts on defense, and my Heroic Epic allowed me to 1-turn the 3-promo camel archers indefinitely to get the sufficient quantity. These last few turns have been the perfect culmination of my "Boa Constrictor Squeeze" strategy, which was essentially kicked off around Turn 5 when I saw the brown brown brown plains landscape and decided to push for Pyramids and subsequently follow up with the Monk trifecta instead of expanding militarily.

I am thoroughly pleased with Arabia. I wouldn't have picked it if not for the block pick method but the prophet specialists were hugely impactful in bulbing Civil Service for early Bureaucracy, and Theocracy for early AP, and the Camel Archers march promotion may have been the little edge that turned a just-scraping-by hold vs. my enemies into a smashing slaughter of a success. I 100% endorse giving them a try if you have the opportunity.

I'll leave you with this screenshot of my Heroic Epic city in a golden age

   

With the action of this turn my land is well and truly clear of enemies. Now I need to pick a target for attack

[Tarkeel]

With the action of this turn my land is well and truly clear of enemies. Now I need to pick a target for attack

India?

[Sullla]

Holy cow, those plummeting lines on that Power graph... Do you have an overall kill/loss tally to share from the Demographics screen? I'm curious just how efficient your unit trades have been throughout this game - it feels as though the whole thing has been other players charging into your territory and then getting their stacks crushed.

[Cornflakes]

We won!!!!! This was an incredibly fun game throughout. I really really enjoyed the freshness of a non-uber-lush map

Managed to keep my head down enough in the Medieval era so as to not get dogpiled too early, then put the gas peddle down in the renaissance to clench victory! A huge inspiration for this game was Gavagai's comment in PB64:

Btw, Pyramids turned out to be an absolute life savior in this setup, it is due to them I can limp towards Currency instead of being forever caught in a poverty trap.

I was already eyeballing Pyramids as early at T1 when I found the Stone (and of course Philosophical), and as early at T11 when I formulated my first dotmap around getting a stepping stone 2nd city which would assist in getting the Stone/Gold site towards MJMD. But when I saw that comment and compared Gavagai's brown start to my brown land I went all-in on ensuring that I landed Pyramids. From that point I dedicated a worker exclusively to pre-chopping, and went to Writing early for a Madrassa and ran 2 scientists to guarantee a pure GScientist for the first GP to bulb Math. Pyramids were absolutely crucial for me this game. I think up until maybe 10 turns ago I had more beakers accumulated from Representation specialists than all other sources combined I was bouncing around 0gpt all game, and came within 1 turn of strike with negative gpt for multiple turns at one point before Currency, and after Currency there was another stretch where I would have been in strike except for wealth builds. In Gavagai's words, Pyramids turned out to be an absolute life savior and kept me out of the poverty trap.

Another dominant theme of my game was preparing for the looming threat of Cataphracts from the east. Engineering was my military target to get pikes online in order to deflect the Phract storm elsewhere. It was the double-edged blessing and curse of a powerful UU, the threat was clear, and the consequences of not planning for it were dire. Much of my decision making, if not explicitly mentioned in this thread, was yet guided by the understanding that Cataphracts would be breathing down someone's neck sooner rather than later, and my options were to either hope and pray, or be prepared!

The first wars vs. SucksAtCiv were more opportunistic rather than planned invasions. I never intended to conquer SAC until after making myself immune to the Cataphract threat (basically Rifling). I realized very early when I settled my 3rd city that maintenance costs were prohibitively expensive for early conquest, plus as noted in the first post of this thread I had no intention of repeating my previous pattern where I conquer a neighbor in the medieval era, only to get dogpiled and ripped apart in the Renaissance. The two cities that I sniped were territory that was naturally mine by virtue of him settling flatland sites on the midpoints against a CRE neighbor. In an ideal scenario I would have settled both of the cities that I sniped albeit one tile closer to my core on hills (on "my" side of the midpoint but pushing culture 1 tile across), and he would have settled 2 tiles further back, likely one city on a hill somewhere between those. Instead I made due with the two flatland sites that he chose even though they left a dead zone in my dotmap.

On the economic side my overarching plan was to leverage Madrassa + PHI + Pyramids to run mixed Scientist/Prophets in multiple cities. I saw that Civil Service was a manageable bulb target for Great Prophets and therefore planned to get an edge via early Bureaucracy (which I don't think anyone else ever adopted), and then use the boosted hammers at my ultra-production capital to land the Monk trio of wonders. Surplus scientists would be used for the first two golden ages. This plan came together beautifully, and was a huge point of synergy between Pericles with cheap Madrassas and Monasteries combined with the Madrassa priest specialist slots with Arabia.

But as I've seen from browsing MJMD and Pindicator's threads, the game was ultimately won via a stack of chariots in the medieval era. I saw MJMD's skyrocketing GNP in the MoM-boosted Golden Age, and was envisioning him leveraging 36 turns of GA into an additional 8 turns with Taj. At that point in the game I think Pindicator (having conquered BING), MJMD with his Golden Age rocket booster, and I with the Monk trio well underway were all neck and neck. My own borders were comfortably secure thanks to my culture buffer and as previously mentioned I had no intent for conquest until after achieving Cataphract immunity at Rifling. Therefore I sought an opportunity to try and pit MJMD and Pindicator with their long border against one another. MJMD's Golden Age GNP spike seemed like the perfect opportunity. I had the opportunity to raze a Pindicator city, which I passed up in order to hit MJMD. I (rightly it seems) judged the maintenance of a conquest to be a huge drag on research, which was confirmed via the GNP graph, and I therefore saw MJMD as the bigger long-term threat as well as my immediate neighbor. My war declaration against MJMD would at worst cause him to whip during the GA, and maybe even throw off Great People production thus delaying his 3rd GA ... however the actual result succeeded beyond my wildest imaginations! Pindicator and MJMD locked into a spiral of mistrust and mutual damage. And at the end of the MJMD war I passed on the opportunity to gain a border city from MJMD, which in retrospect also was potentially a huge move. That border city gave MJMD access to India and a vector to gain land without attacking me, and although I didn't exactly have that in mind when I made the decision I perceived that the "free" city would only be a liability without furthering my objective of Rifling ASAP unto domination.

And then the final dozen turns of cat-and-mouse with first Superdeath's Cataphracts, then the combined militaries of the entire world pitted against me were an absolute blast, hugely fun! The CRE + Madrassa + Monastery culture buffer made the preparations easy, with obvious vulnerabilities and obvious staging tiles. Complete cultural vision over MJMD allowed me to monitor his troop movements as well as Superdeath's Counter-Clockwise Cataphract Crusade. In these final turns I never really doubted that I would be able to prevail, but the anticipation and planning, and the ultimate victory was delightful!

A huge thanks to the other plays for this entertaining game!

[Cornflakes]

Holy cow, those plummeting lines on that Power graph...  Do you have an overall kill/loss tally to share from the Demographics screen? I'm curious just how efficient your unit trades have been throughout this game - it feels as though the whole thing has been other players charging into your territory and then getting their stacks crushed.

Yes, I'll log in again and grab that before the game gets taken down. I'm curious as well.

[pindicator]

Huge congrats. I know I have a long thread (was the main way I kept Hitru updated so I had to post one every turn), but after some early criticism about not attacking enough (in hindsight you made the right call there!) you'll find me gushing about your diplomacy and how you played Mjmd off against each other.

Also it took me some time to figure out how you beat me to Mids. (2 turns, btw.) Bulbing Math to get the bonus chops is something I don't think I've seen on here before.