[pb72 spoilers]: the esteemed gentleman's literature and book club

[Krill]

Just making a comment on PB5: That was a random map, believe it or not, the only change was that Seven altered Plakos plains cow to a grass cow and then Plako died. And I specifically played it without slavery because events were on, and the slave revolt event was still active. That game should really be considered as a variant.

Although thank you for mentioning it, I've just gone back and looked at the screenshots and I can see so many similarities to the more recent random maps we've played.

[greenline]

B&S, the superior mapscript.

I tried playing out some test starts with Mao of Byz on random maps, just to get a feel for what you can and can't pull off. I didn't bother with any seafood starts, only inland. The Civ 4 map generator rarely gives you deer, so I can't comment on that. Here's what I noticed:

For double agri resource starts, you can go agri + BW and have the worker just about ready to chop once BW comes in. The extra turn you can spend roading.

For one agri + double pastures, you can go agri + AH and the settler is usually done by the time all the food is improved. So long as you have no sheep.

Where the techs don't work is either double pasture, or one grain + one pasture and forests. Then the worker has to road or sit idle while you're either finishing AH or BW.

Unfortunately, I couldn't really sim much further then that because random maps refuse to give any decent second or third cities that even had food worth a damn, much less any that could be shared with the capital.

[scooter]

Just making a comment on PB5: That was a random map, believe it or not, the only change was that Seven altered Plakos plains cow to a grass cow and then Plako died. And I specifically played it without slavery because events were on, and the slave revolt event was still active. That game should really be considered as a variant.

Although thank you for mentioning it, I've just gone back and looked at the screenshots and I can see so many similarities to the more recent random maps we've played.

I'm also obligated to point out people spawned on the "Small" portions, and that map script does not spawn luxuries on the "Small" portions. It's a very special memory.

[greenline]

I'd definitely hard lock CHM mayans on a no lux map.


My first time experience the joys of back and forths about what the map should be like in the setup thread. Is it that hard to just default on a script that meets the distance criteria? Who would want to even play a rainforest map? This isn't Civ 6, all you get for a jungle chop is the sad realization that it took 3 odd turns just to get a decent tile for your efforts.

[Tarkeel]

In Krill's defense, there usually ends up a fair amount of bitching at the map (and maker), so it's fine for him to get a good sense of what people want. Mapmakers also have distinct styles, I think I'm the only one making custom maps these days. PB60+70 was completely handcrafted, PB63+68 was heavily edited and PB61 moderately so.

As for jungles, they tend to slow down the tech rate in the start and limit rushes, but then once you can turn those tiles into cottages...

[greenline]

my annoyance isn't with Krill, but with the other players for giving non answers and lollygagging on what should be a simple yes or no question. Krill's already put in a lot of work to finagle the right settings for the number of players and the game, so it is just the other players holding us up now.

[Commodore]

Just making a comment on PB5: That was a random map, believe it or not, the only change was that Seven altered Plakos plains cow to a grass cow and then Plako died. And I specifically played it without slavery because events were on, and the slave revolt event was still active. That game should really be considered as a variant.

Although thank you for mentioning it, I've just gone back and looked at the screenshots and I can see so many similarities to the more recent random maps we've played.

That was such an epic game. Not as good at PB8 or PB13, but still a wonderful experience.

Dropbox breaking reports really was like a dozen Libraries of Alexandria being burned. 

[scooter]

Just making a comment on PB5: That was a random map, believe it or not, the only change was that Seven altered Plakos plains cow to a grass cow and then Plako died. And I specifically played it without slavery because events were on, and the slave revolt event was still active. That game should really be considered as a variant.

Although thank you for mentioning it, I've just gone back and looked at the screenshots and I can see so many similarities to the more recent random maps we've played.

That was such an epic game. Not as good at PB8 or PB13, but still a wonderful experience.

Dropbox breaking reports really was like a dozen Libraries of Alexandria being burned. 

I have all my screenshots still. I just need to do the tedious work of editing them back into posts. Also FWIW, I've used archive.org successfully in the past on some threads.

[Tarkeel]

I think this is a good time to plug some of the best posts of RB. Here's Commodore in PB8:

Maxim: Protracted Land War Against a Competent Opponent is Never a Good Idea
Corollary One: Aggressive Land UUs Are Awful
Corollary Two: Naval War Against a Competent Opponent Isn't Necessarily a Bad Idea
Corollary Three: Ships Are Worth Study And Thought

These are what I had in mind when I'm being sceptical of Byzantium.

[greenline]

I think those posts still undersell the value of the Cataphract. It is generally true that a land war against a competent opponent will incur heavy enough losses that would leave one vulnerable to counterattacks and feints from neighbors. Pindicator managed to stop a stack of Cavalry with just Cho-Ku-Nus and cats in PB18. The Cataphract shouldn't be seen as an auto win button against any enemy with Guilds or Engineering. That being said, I still see the +2 strength as being significant enough to cover several different scenarios:

1: Civ with Longbows but not Knights or Pikes

While a sufficiently big Knight stack will generally wreck most ancient age ones, using them to push through cities with Longbows on hills with cat support can get sketchy. I used this to good effect in one of my own games (against Commodore, funnily enough), where I had just enough production and research to scrape together Longbow stacks in front cities and ward off an attack. The extra strength on a Phract, though, does let it blitz through even longbow stacks fairly efficiently in comparison.

2: Playing defense while executing a land war against an incompetent opponent

While they don't get defensive bonuses, 12 str and the ability to take pinch makes a phract almost as good as a Cuir on defense, able to take out cannons directly if not flank them, and it comes online much earlier. A scenario I can easily see happening is that, if I did make it to phracts and roll over an easy neighbor, I would then be attacked by the other players to try and stabilize things. A 12str knight can break enemy stacks much easier then a 10str one. This would be very useful for a player in a current game:

pb69 spoilers

Bing pulled off a quick and efficient conquest of superdeath, but had no answer to the German early grenadier UU. If he had phracts with pinch, I think that would have been the difference between him not being able to crack Commodore's stack and being able to would it severely enough he might have had a chance. Of course, his economic situation might have been worse with Byz instead of Carthage to begin with.

3: Not going for a medieval attack at all

Going off the idea of using a phract as a discount Cuir, one strategy I was thinking of was using the ability to ignore MilTradition for a while to beeline cannons, and then building a Cannon + Phract doomstack in the Renny era to crack some heads.

You can do all of these tricks with a phract because it is still a 2 mover, and 2 movers are just that good. But for me, it's still a question of the start techs being workable first.