Creative + Organized

[Wyatan]

I guess that he's read it and that now what he's wondering is rather what prompted the decision to have 26 leaders. Why that particular figure ?
And in the context of this thread, why :
26 leaders, 28 combinations --> let's drop two combinations
rather than :
28 combinations --> 28 leaders --> oops, one's too powerful, let's drop one ?

[Sirian]

I guess that he's read it and that now what he's wondering is rather what prompted the decision to have 26 leaders. Why that particular figure ?

What does it matter?

In any event, that question crosses over the line of what we're allowed to discuss. So... you're back to the original question and answer, which was plenty adequate for those not trying to overread it.


- Sirian

[Jester]

Well, that's pretty much our final answer, then.

Philosophical-industrious was dropped because it was too powerful. Amen, I say.

Creative-organized was dropped. Or maybe it was never added. That's pretty much all we'll know until Soren/Sid/Jeff/Anyone comes out and tells us explicitly why.

-Jester

[Griselda]

I think you're all looking a bit too hard at this one. Not all game decisions are made for insightful and glamorous reasons.

[Bezhukov]

This is true, but my original analysis still stands. If I had to play a game of Emperor or harder CivIV upon which my life depended, given no other information, those are the two traits I'd choose. Other traits shine in particular situations, those two are generally applicable, and applicable in the most crucial stage of the game.

[Drasca]

Isn't mindless speculation fun? Next, I predict there will be a hidden "M" traits where the leaders with M in their names will gain powers of chaos, enabling them to access the hidden UU of monkey butlers, who have a strength of 2, replace warriors and pillage tiles next to them at half movement cost.

[Liquidated]

haha liq is wondering nothing. This thread answered my query, not sure why sulla would prompt me to look again at sirians post.

Just was asking if there was something obvious I was missing about the exclusion of creat+org. So far, no.

the 'time will tell' comment I meant has to do with our maturity at the game. As the difficulty level baseline migrates higher,The traits take on different value. Traits that used to be marginal (expansive and organzied) at settler level might just be THE traits to have on Diety since you are given none of the buffers the lower difficulties apply.

I started out loving cathy for the creative financial trait but I've begun to appreciate the less obvious traits as well. Personally, I'm liking the expansive trait not only for the extra health, but those all important half priced granarys. Expansive was a trait I really had no appreciation until my game improved.

The current trait I really have no clue how to use effectively is, and always has been, Organized. I just have not run into a situation where I think "Man civic costs are too high."Keep in mind that my mere playstyle (e.g. a liking for cheap builder civics) may preclude me from ever really seeing the true value of organized. To that end, maybe Organized is more for the colonial minded player who is constantly expanding war or peace.

Again though that all comes full circle

If I'm thinking colonial playstyles prefer the Organized trait, the two traits that come to mind to help the expansion minded goals are......

Aggressive for the buffed military.
Creative for the fast conversion.

If Sirian hints that there may be no reason that's fine. My purpose posting here was just a reality check to see if I missed some broken aspect of cre/org as I really never play an agressive expansion game on my own to find out.

To state explicitly just in case there's doubt as I thought this thread was done a few days ago...

Liq asks an obscure question
The RB Think Tank answers as they see it
Liq says thanks in his customarily verbose style

I really do type too much, but it's surely entertaining to someone! Maybe it just entertains Liq!!!

Cheers!
-Liquidated

[BeefontheBone]

You could always try an experiment - open up the xml, make somebody Cre+Org and play a few games to see if that ruins it

[Bezhukov]

The main crunch I've found on higher levels comes around the fifth or sixth city mark, as you often lack the tech (calendar or monarchy) to develop happiness resources and thus continue to grow the cities you have, and the new cities simultaneously strain your finances, making researching those techs more difficult.

Anything that helps ameliorate those finances at this crucial time is a godsend, and Organized does double duty with cheap Courthouses (and Lighthouses to work high commerce water tiles!) and Civics. If you go Monarchy for Hereditary rule to grow your cities, the usual financial bite of that civic is much less severe with Organized, and of course the ultimate builder civic, Organized Religion, is well-named sonce Organized civs are the only ones who can afford to run it.

Creative provides not only free culture - getting key resources under your control much easier, but also the cheap theaters and colosseums allow an alternative happiness source, analogous to the luxury slider much used at this stage in high level CivIII play.

This allows beelining the Alphabet tree (followed by Drama and/or Lit for Great Library if marble is available) and picking up Calendar and Monarchy later through trade.

[McClure]

Why don't we test this out?

Succession Game with (Cre,Org) Civ

Emperor level so we should see an obnoxious level of AI troops, and have a need to fight for an empire.