[SPOILERS] scooter Expands the Empire Across the Sea

[scooter]

Being a specifically water-heavy map I think some traits are going to be better and worse than normal, mainly:

CREative: City placement is likely to be more dictated by the shape of the land than where resources are placed. Border culture might be less important than usual, but it could also go the other way: Water sometimes gives you the option of settling only 2 tiles away from your opponent, and if you start with free culture it's actually quite possible to flip the city.

CHArismatic: All of the parts could be very useful here: It's not unlikely that the extra happy will matter more than usual, cheaper monuments for culture (see CRE above), and especially more promotions on ships.

PROtective: With ORG and FIN banned and presumably easy access to internal ICTRs, PRO looks almost mandatory for economy, except for...

PHIlisophic: Lets you bulb to Astronomy faster then the competition, which could be the key to victory.

INDustrious: Looks worse off at first glance with it's two key wonders banned, but you might actually be the only player to afford forges.

AGGressive: Makes Amphibious much more attainable for attacking off those ships.

IMPerialistic: Doesn't seem to be worthwhile when you're likely to need galleys early on.

I was pretty down on Creative for this, but I definitely see where you're coming from here. I wonder though if Charismatic is just a better version of Creative? Cheap Monument for +1 culture is definitely not the same as instant +2 culture, but I wonder if it's close enough that the other advantages outweight it?


I think Spiritual and Philosophical are both quite good here, but I have played them both quite a bit recently, so that is a point against. Not necessarily a deal-breaker though.


I agree regarding IND/AGG/IMP. I like IND quite a bit here, especially if I'm the only one taking it. AGG I think is reasonably viable due to the Amphibious concerns, and IMP I'm pretty lukewarm on.


Overall, I'd be happy with a lot of things. I like PRO, CHM, IND, EXP, SPI, and PHI the best. Not necessarily in that order. I think what this exercise has shown me is I'd be happy with quite a lot of leader options here, which might push towards going Civ first. Speaking of.

There's also some stand-out civs:

Spain is likely to be under-rated for a water-y map, and the extra ship-xp from Citadels might be a bit late, but probably still worth it.
Germany can have very early grenadiers to load on boats.
America is always good to combine with PHI-bulbing.
Carthage could be very good but really needs to also grab Mao (EXP/PRO) to make the most out of Cothons.

Thoughts on the start will come later.

I like Spain a ton. I just wonder whether the game will be largely decided before they're online? It's basically a null civ for like 100T, and even from there the ramp-up is slow. This is my main concern here. But I do like Spain - I'm just poking holes for the sake of the exercise. Germany I think is a similar case - they offer a lot, I just worry about getting there. Agg/Phi and bulb my way down to Chemistry, and then go Viking some fools with Amphibious Riesengarde? Hm. The other civs are really strong candidates too, but let me toss out a few more without giving starting techs any consideration at all.


* Persia: Pair with a protective leader for cheap Bazaars. Now, the catch here is this largely doesn't exceed the 3c -> 4c breakpoint for trade, but if paired with a Harbor, it would. So this is the other Mao-friendly civ. I think the UU is actually sneaky useful for Islands in that it provides good cheap garrisons everywhere that can move in that they get defensive bonuses. Barbs off dulls some of this usefulness though, so it really is about the UB.


* Inca: Save 15h on the Granary, along with the ability to irrigate. Easy to forget how difficult irrigation can be to come by on islands, so I suspect this is really good. This is a way to skip Expansive in that you only need to scrounge together 15h to get it into 1-pop range while still saving you 15h in every city, not to mention snowballing a tad faster. Like you pointed out via chat - chops are harder to come by on Islands.


* Japan: +2XP at the Forge, plus only 100h. Paired with Agg + Barracks and you can get Amphibious units from the jump without the use of a civic booster. Paired with Chm and it's now possible to get to Amphibious without Aggressive. Even setting aside Amphibious, it just generally makes that second promo easy even for a leader that skips military traits altogether. The downside: it only applies to Melee, which means this civ completely falls off in the mid-game if it gets there.


* Native America: Paired with Chm and a Barracks would allow Melee and Gunpowder units to get two promos without Theo/Vassalage. Also, the UB never obsoletes, so you can still get +1XP on Gunpowder units deep into the game. With CHM it's dirt cheap, so you'll build it everywhere. If we could pair it with someone like Churchill, a longbow with Barracks + Totem Pole + Chm + Theo could get CG3 Drill2, for example. That might go a long ways to keeping island holdings safe and/or allow for more aggressive plants. I just gererally like the idea of getting tons of passive XP throughout nearly the entire game for very little investment.


* Khmer: I could see the Baray being moderately useful here, and the UU is consistently good and useful, though maybe a tad more muted on a water map.


* Ottomans: I think the UU is well-timed as I think the game will heat up dramatically right around the time Muskets come online, and that UU handles everything pre-Grenadiers. The Hamman definitely might be a fit if resources are tight as concerned, and while you wouldn't build it everywhere, it seems handy to have available for the larger cities.

[Tarkeel]

Japan (w/Stalin) does get some very fearsome Samurai to launch from boats, but are they in a relevant window and can you afford to build the forges first? As you say, this drops off once gunpowder comes on the scene.

Inca could be good for the irrigation, but it's also very hard to know if that will be relevant. Cheaper granaries are always good though.

Natives (w/Churchill) isn't exactly a new idea, but this might actually be a game where it's worthwhile to have turtling power. CHA and PRO are also two of the traits that are likely to be good on it's own.

Ottomans aren't sexy but they get the job done; not entirely sold on either Persia or Khmer but Rome is also nothing to scoff at.

[scooter]

Japan (w/Stalin) does get some very fearsome Samurai to launch from boats, but are they in a relevant window and can you afford to build the forges first? As you say, this drops off once gunpowder comes on the scene.

Inca could be good for the irrigation, but it's also very hard to know if that will be relevant. Cheaper granaries are always good though.

Natives (w/Churchill) isn't exactly a new idea, but this might actually be a game where it's worthwhile to have turtling power. CHA and PRO are also two of the traits that are likely to be good on it's own.

Ottomans aren't sexy but they get the job done; not entirely sold on either Persia or Khmer but Rome is also nothing to scoff at.

FWIW Industrious Japan will get those Forges quite cheaply. They're already discounted to 100h, and IND cuts that in half to make it functionally cheaper than a Granary. I think it's worth pointing out that the mega-cheap Forge alone is worth a lot. I sort of think I like the other options better, though.


I suspect the modified Incan Terrace could be quite valuable. I'll roll some M&S maps to double check, but my general suspicion is there will be a lot of dry cities. Both for irrigating grain foods, and also just generally to make it possible to farm the odd barren island.


However, here's a different way of framing this conversation. Is there something on either the Leader or Civ side that you like so much that you feel like if it's there at 5, you'd definitely want to pick it and then find a match at 10? I'll stick mine in spoiler so you can think about your answer before I give mine.

I sort of feel this way about Mao or Spain, for the domestic routes and UB respectively.

[Tarkeel]

It really depends a lot on what gets picked. Not just which choices become unavailable, but how many pick the same thing. The stand-out choice for me must be Mao, but I'd be surprised if he's unpicked at 5. I'll happily play along with whatever you choose though.

[scooter]

Japan's off the board. I encourage you all to read Yuri's thread in the voice of John Blackthorne.


I've started thinking more specifically about the start. Specifically, there's a glaring issue with Spain's Fishing/Myst starting techs. We need Agriculture for the Corn, and AH for the Sheep, and Spain starts with neither. Worse, once those are done, the Worker will have nothing to do very quickly as we would still need Wheel for roads, or both Mining->BW for chops. Fishing isn't even that useful given that it's Crabs rather than Fish, but the main issue is just the Worker getting idled. I think all-around this start will be incredibly awkward for Spain. It's not unworkable, but it's a real negative.


(Side note: I think the way we should play Ancient is to start everyone with a Worker and every worker tech. If there's so much resistance to later era starts, this would be halfway between Ancient and Classical in a way that would speed the game up by a few weeks without fundamentally altering very much at all.)


Pretty much all the other Civs discussed in this thread are more workable. Native America and Inca both start with Agriculture, giving it a head start towards the necessary third worker tech. Carthage gets Mining, so that at least makes something like Agri-AH-BW doable. I think that's enough to bump Spain down in the priority for me a bit.

[Krill]

(Side note: I think the way we should play Ancient is to start everyone with a Worker and every worker tech. If there's so much resistance to later era starts, this would be halfway between Ancient and Classical in a way that would speed the game up by a few weeks without fundamentally altering very much at all.)

First row of techs, a worker, and all tiles shown with 40% borders including geography would probably fly?

[Tarkeel]

With Yuris and Bing picking civs, we're pretty sure that we're going leader first, depending on what's available after SD and Ginger picks. I expect at least one of them to go for a leader. The leaders we are most interested in are Mao (EXP/PRO) and Churchill (CHA/PRO), but if somehow both of those get picked we need to look at this from a different angle.

For Mao we'd prefer to combine with Carthage, which is a civ that really needs Mao to shine, but Ottomans are a decent backup if needed. Churchill would prefer to combine with Native America, but would also be happy to go with the Inca.

[scooter]

(Side note: I think the way we should play Ancient is to start everyone with a Worker and every worker tech. If there's so much resistance to later era starts, this would be halfway between Ancient and Classical in a way that would speed the game up by a few weeks without fundamentally altering very much at all.)

First row of techs, a worker, and all tiles shown with 40% borders including geography would probably fly?

Yeah I think this would work great too. I think the thing that irks me the most about Ancient is that 1) so much of picking revolves around whether or not your starting techs fit, and 2) you spend a week or two just waiting for the worker to build followed by another week of two worker actions while growing. It’s just dull. Let’s have the interesting decisions start immediately and get the game moving.


(I don’t find the inevitable simming the first 30T over and over until it’s perfectly optimized interesting, hence my important qualifier there. More of a necessary evil.)

With Yuris and Bing picking civs, we're pretty sure that we're going leader first, depending on what's available after SD and Ginger picks. I expect at least one of them to go for a leader. The leaders we are most interested in are Mao (EXP/PRO) and Churchill (CHA/PRO), but if somehow both of those get picked we need to look at this from a different angle.

For Mao we'd prefer to combine with Carthage, which is a civ that really needs Mao to shine, but Ottomans are a decent backup if needed. Churchill would prefer to combine with Native America, but would also be happy to go with the Inca.

Good summary of the current thinking. I’m really banking on one of these leaders making it past Ginger/SD. I think the odds of that are pretty good. I think both of them being up is actually decently likely. Ginger puts a premium on bulbs usually, and this game has a big one, so I’m anticipating him taking a SPI or PHI leader. He’s definitely a threat to take Mao, though. And of course, SD loves his warmonger-y leaders, so I’m sort of guessing he goes that route. We’ll see, though.


If both fall, it’s back to the drawing board because while there’s a million other things that sound interesting, there isn’t a third option that’s top of mind currently.

[Miguelito]

Side note: I think the way we should play Ancient is to start everyone with a Worker and every worker tech. If there's so much resistance to later era starts, this would be halfway between Ancient and Classical in a way that would speed the game up by a few weeks without fundamentally altering very much at all.

 
Not against trying it, but taking starting techs out of the equation does alter things fundamentally in my view. Like, every game would have Byzantines in the first three picks.
Maybe give a worker + 1 first row tech of choice?

In eitb lately we have given all first row techs + 1 that could be researched with just your starting techs. Starting techs affect balance hard with options like BW or pottery for somevs just Sailing forothers, and for the mysticism civs it causes issues with who gets to found religions, but maybe still worth considering.

Also I'm not fed up with ancient starts and simming yet because I've only played 7 so far and never much SP, but I would gladly sign up for variants. Just the last few times I had games running already.

[Tarkeel]

Side note: I think the way we should play Ancient is to start everyone with a Worker and every worker tech. If there's so much resistance to later era starts, this would be halfway between Ancient and Classical in a way that would speed the game up by a few weeks without fundamentally altering very much at all.

 
Not against trying it, but taking starting techs out of the equation does alter things fundamentally in my view. Like, every game would have Byzantines in the first three picks.
Maybe give a worker + 1 first row tech of choice?

In eitb lately we have given all first row techs + 1 that could be researched with just your starting techs. Starting techs affect balance hard with options like BW or pottery for somevs just Sailing forothers, and for the mysticism civs it causes issues with who gets to found religions, but maybe still worth considering.

I was actually thinking of sponsoring a game in these lines, inspired by the EitB games. Everyone starts with the first line of techs and a worker, and can pick one other tech the normal starting techs unlocks. This does require being force-settled in place though, both for those that choose a religion, but more importantly so people can't wander to settle on horses.