The lurker's burrow

[civac2]

   

[Mjmd]

And just like the pathing in original starcraft this is silly. Heh guys lets start a game where we emphasize the absolute worst part of civ4 combat!

I am here for it.

[civac2]

It's necessary to a certain extent for the units in Broodwar to be a bit clunky and having bad pathing in combat. It makes armies require a good amount of space to operate and thus enables tactics like flanking and defense in depth instead of two balls crashing into each other like in SC2. It would be nice if dragoons could walk down a ramp, admittedly.

As for this game I'm curious if people can resist engaging in galley wars. My guess is no despite it being a near surefire path to irrelevance.

[aetryn]

Of course, I understand why they did it, but it's amusing to me that they take all the civs with clear naval bonuses and then ban them in the one type of game where they might be worth picking. I except Vikings, which seem like they need another balance pass if we're banning them/considering banning them from any game that involves sea movement of any kind. But when ARE you going to play Portugal and the Dutch if it's not this game? We don't ban all the civs that have strong land games when there's no water. Is there an actual game type/map script where you feel like Portugal or the Dutch is a strong but not overwhelmingly good pick?

[Mjmd]

Like I said in the tech thread those are good civs for larger games. IE games you A) expect there to be astro land and B) expect the game to be pretty long. Just both people who got Portugal didn't do great in the big games and I think the random civ generator never gave Dutch as an option to people.

[aetryn]

Like I said in the tech thread those are good civs for larger games. IE games you A) expect there to be astro land and B) expect the game to be pretty long. Just both people who got Portugal didn't do great in the big games and I think the random civ generator never gave Dutch as an option to people.

Right, but they still weren't picked per-se in that game, unless you count "not being thrown back and re-rolled in a field where everything good was going to get kept" picking. I suppose in a 20 player snake-draft they might well get picked, and not even picked last. But I'd bet a lot of civs would still go before them. I was more thinking of a game they might go in the top 5 or even top 3 but wouldn't be seen as too strong.

I think the problem is twofold:
Not enough civs with naval bonuses at all. If everyone could get one, than in a 5-6 player naval game everyone could pick their favorites. As it is though, the last players wouldn't get anything naval in a map that favors it.
All or nothing nature of naval power. Either it's not important, or after a certain point of the game you lose if you can't maintain it, because of the fragility of naval balance due to higher rates of movement.

[Thoth]

Of course, I understand why they did it, but it's amusing to me that they take all the civs with clear naval bonuses and then ban them in the one type of game where they might be worth picking. I except Vikings, which seem like they need another balance pass if we're banning them/considering banning them from any game that involves sea movement of any kind. But when ARE you going to play Portugal and the Dutch if it's not this game? We don't ban all the civs that have strong land games when there's no water. Is there an actual game type/map script where you feel like Portugal or the Dutch is a strong but not overwhelmingly good pick?

Vikings isn't just movement advantage.   Charismatic can get the +1 movement with Vassalage and Theocracy for 4 xp.   But Charismatic Vikings can get the same movement speed from their UB and then spend their two promotions on Combat 1 and 2 which gives them a huge edge in same-era naval combat.  

I don't know what the solution to Vikings is, they're either very strong (water maps) or not useful (non-watery maps).  

Giving them a different UB might be the way to go.  Maybe something barracks based?  Dunno for sure though.

[Thoth]

it is a workboat first start

Dude, you have wet corn (6 food) and crabs (4 food). This is a worker first start every day of the week and you're probably better off waiting until after your first settler is out before putting 30 hammers into a workboat to improve 1 tile to 4 food.

[Krill]

it is a workboat first start

Dude, you have wet corn (6 food) and crabs (4 food). This is a worker first start every day of the week and you're probably better off waiting until after your first settler is out before putting 30 hammers into a workboat to improve 1 tile to 4 food.

The corn is dry and improved t17 growth@2 eot18 25/22. Workboat is finished eot5, hooks a crab t6 and then gives a worker eot15 and the corn is improved t21. Because the crab is worked from t6 with the wb it's growth eot21 25/22 so down 18 food but up 30 hammers and about 40 commerce.

The really kicker is what does the worker do after the corn hook up? Can't get AH by then with alot of civs, but wb first can squeeze that in better.

[civac2]

It says Fresh Water on Yuri's screenshot so it's wet corn. After farming the wet corn you farm the sheep.