[PB79] MirOh No, what am I doing?

[Miro]

Loans or gold gifts have swung several wars in MP due to allowing one party to reach a tech in the nick of time or make key unit upgrades. Being on the receiving end of that suuuuuuuucks.

A) Ooooooooo that sounds really cool!

B) Now knowing this, my paranoia will triple the next time I DoW 

[Mjmd]

Q0) Do you have a scout in Gira territory to keep an eye on that stack?
Q1) Resource donation is a common one although Xist CAN see it fyi. I don't think its a big deal as its pretty clearly you vs him for the top spot. Gira has to hope for mutual self destruction and hopefully Coldrain is pissed at Xist and stays on your side. Don't gift gold, that is scummy. Cheap loans are definitely a thing; however, with you in a GA and in a tech race, I don't recommend.
Q2) Naval war changes by tech quite a bit. I've only had 1 major naval campaign in this tech time frame (although I've had two involving battleships and nukes). It comes down to numbers at this stage like all of them, but more maneuvering possible because it requires quite a bit more numbers to overwhelm. Xist at this stage is just looking to pick up naval ports and deny naval ports to his enemy.

I kind of hate libbing nationalism, but I do think due to timing it might be necessary due to the earlier GA, but leave that to your discretion. Earlier GA was probably correct to contest the first to bonuses and speed up the other monk wonders. Did you look over my idea to have Cumae chop Taj? I think it has/had the most remaining forests.

[Miro]

Q0) Do you have a scout in Gira territory to keep an eye on that stack?
Q1) Resource donation is a common one although Xist CAN see it fyi. I don't think its a big deal as its pretty clearly you vs him for the top spot. Gira has to hope for mutual self destruction and hopefully Coldrain is pissed at Xist and stays on your side. Don't gift gold, that is scummy. Cheap loans are definitely a thing; however, with you in a GA and in a tech race, I don't recommend.
Q2) Naval war changes by tech quite a bit. I've only had 1 major naval campaign in this tech time frame (although I've had two involving battleships and nukes). It comes down to numbers at this stage like all of them, but more maneuvering possible because it requires quite a bit more numbers to overwhelm. Xist at this stage is just looking to pick up naval ports and deny naval ports to his enemy.

I kind of hate libbing nationalism, but I do think due to timing it might be necessary due to the earlier GA, but leave that to your discretion. Earlier GA was probably correct to contest the first to bonuses and speed up the other monk wonders. Did you look over my idea to have Cumae chop Taj? I think it has/had the most remaining forests.

Oh, right, we talked about going Lib -> Astro. I'll see what it looks like when it gets closer, might still be able to do that and get Nationalism on my own before GA ends. I have ~1900g with ~-250g/t, so I can switch some Wealth builds for Research if it would guarantee Nationalism after Lib. I can start prechopping in Cumae for Taj Mahal, just a little worried about its base production so I'll check the math next turn compared to other spots.

I had a scout near xist's army in Oea, but it didn't go towards Gira's city. I checked to see if xist went forward, straight through coldrain's border, then I checked east. If I would have slowed down to see he just opened borders with Gira, then I could've checked Gira's land to confirm the army's spot or infer it must have moved east. I'll have spy vision of all of Gira's cities soon at least.

Shoot, so xist can see the Wine... then I gotta get my story straight. Coldrain DEMANDED Wine! My hands were tied! It was a misclick!

[Tarkeel]

The foreign advisor screen (F4) is extremely leaky and can tell you a lot of interesting stuff if you know where to look and interpret what you see.

As for the resource donation, I see it as a cold war: yes, it sucks when your rivals donate iron/horse to the player you just painstakingly denied that resource to, but atleast it makes it clear who you're fighting in the long run. Not that *that* is hard iin a five-player game.

[Miro]

T169 Update:

War Update:

Fuck. At least xist won't get more cities? They made peace T168 and xist's army was in Gira's land where he started a siege on Okran's Gulf with just ~6 units. A few Knights split to raid coldrain's land further south while most of his army stayed in Gira's land, ready to push if the Catapults did well. Now xist's army returned home, sitting 1N of Oea. I'll be watching it. Knights could blitz Cumae by T172 if he was trying to flip from an NA war to a China war.

I have no clue how to tell if it was a ceasefire, empty peace treaty, or if concessions were made for a peace treaty.

xist finished Education and can now tech Liberalism, but queued Banking instead.  I may finish Liberalism by T171, a turn earlier! I hope xist doesn't catch on to Cumae being the Taj Mahal city (math confirmed it's the best site), he could probably take it before it finishes.

I'm starting Knight production in a few cities. I have enough gold to 100% tech the rest of the GA, but I want some Knights in case Cumae is targeted.

China:

(ignore "T172 Taj Mahal Go" sign, it might start T171)

Charts:


That power dip between T168 and T169 for xist is odd to me. Maybe he deleted a few Galleys he wasn't using (still has 6+ in main navy). Glad to see his army production may be tapering off.

Look at the scores!!


Beautiful, beautiful green line go up. All thanks to greenline's map!

I remember seeing coldrain's strong start and being paranoid about his progress and being paranoid about being in last place (by score) after the Rome war. Glad that's all over!
Now we can start a new chapter of paranoia. Oh god, oh fuck, I'm in first. They're coming for me. They're all coming for me.



Questions:
(Q1): How does a transition from war to peace usually play out in MP? I'm sure coldrain is mad about losing an island and now has a massive idle navy.

(Q2): Do players typically go for Grenadiers before Rifling in MP, or just in navy-focused mid games? I see xist and coldrain both went this route, might just be a natural progression after rushing Chemistry.

[Tarkeel]

I have no clue how to tell if it was a ceasefire, empty peace treaty, or if concessions were made for a peace treaty.

Diplomacy (F4) will help some. Is there a 10t enforcement, if so it's a peace treaty. If there's nothing then it was a ceasefire, and those can't have any concessions.

(Q1): How does a transition from war to peace usually play out in MP? I'm sure coldrain is mad about losing an island and now has a massive idle navy.
(Q2): Do players typically go for Grenadiers before Rifling in MP, or just in navy-focused mid games? I see xist and coldrain both went this route, might just be a natural progression after rushing Chemistry.

Short answer to both: It varies.

Some people take peace as 10t re-armament phase; others take it as "that didn't work, let's do something else." It pretty much comes down to how well you understand each other, and how the war stared. A "justified landgrab" can be easier to put behind you than a backstab.

The reason for going grenadiers first isn't actually that unit, but the cannons you unlock on the way; drydocks and ironclads also feature in watery maps. Rifling comes from pursuing PrintingPress and ReplaceableParts for the economy, particularly if you also have Nationalism->MilTrad for cuirassiers and cavalary. If your opponents are somewhat equal in tech, you're going to need cannons to both attack and defend, but if you're rushing ahead then you might catch someone with cuir/cav.

[Mjmd]

Q0) PBSPY would have shown a point swap if a city changed hands.

Some knights are fine as long as you are still going 100% on research during the GA. Keep scouts out and about. You have vision of both Coldrain and Gira so that is something. Cumae is also on the opposite side from where the fighting was happening although with galleons to help transport its not as far as I would like. I can also vaguely see some cho ko nus in back line cities that should be somewhere near the front line. And the front line is definitely the west in my opinion. Note that the ones already garrisoned east can stay, but I would start moving any small stacks and certainly any garrisoning cities like Carcassone and Age of Mythology west. Edit: your power is close to his and some of Xist's is tied up in ships (very good ships but still), so what you have as long as its in the right places should be good enough until drafting although a couple knights won't go awry just to be able to help protect multiple cities.

Agreed with Tarkeel varies a ton. That being said
Q1) Can hope he stays mad. Also, instead of land invading Xist I'm SHOCKED Onoba is still in Xist hands. That city is just begging for a war. Instead of offering my army up for slaughter that would have been my goal in a war.
Q2) I try to do the econ route whenever possible. That being said, you already have played greedy econ, so naval route after lib & nationalism is imperative.

[greenline]

How would you rate the map thus far? What have you liked the most, what would you want changed the most?

[Miro]

Woah what happens here?





He has PBSpy ID 2, I have PBSpy ID 3, so I'm guessing he gets Lib first? I'm calling my senator again.

And thanks Tarkeel & Mjmd! I don't see anything on the page, so it must be a ceasefire. And yes, I'll be building up a navy after Nationalism.

[Miro]

How would you rate the map thus far? What have you liked the most, what would you want changed the most?

I love that there are many valuable islands and the seemingly clear geographic borders from the start.

Added to the "start" map I used before to look at what is "their land" and what is contestable land:



I think I have the easiest starting position. Not saying it's strongest, just that it's the one that takes the lowest skill to expand from because I have more available space in the mainland and fewer vital islands (balanced with many plains east of my capital).
Gira's start seems easier, too; his expansion is very straightforward. He's tucked safe between mountains and the ocean, but was required to take many islands and control the northern sea.
Coldrain's spot is more difficult and versatile. He needed to grab at least a few islands, but could have either gone crazy with island grabbing (like he did), taken the land south of the 8 middle mountains (like he did), or taken more space towards Gira. Considering borders, I think Mjmd would say he should've stopped where he did, but I'm just saying he had options.
xist's start seems most difficult. He needed to expand/race to islands in 2 different seas, but they're very rewarding islands. Thankfully, he has a canal, otherwise navy battles could be dreadful for him.
Rickety's start is very balanced. I like the rich islands near Rome and he has moderate, safe areas in the mainland to expand to.

Not saying any of that like it's good or bad, the more difficult starts had proper rewards involved.

I like that there's a balanced incentive to have land wars and navy wars. Gira could've taken my islands earlier if that was his focus, but probably shouldn't invade my mainland. xist or coldrain could invade my islands, but probably shouldn't because then I'll call my dad and he'll beat up their dads.

If I were to change anything, maybe add a half-decent tundra island along Gira's north shore that xist could've contested like the ones I have on my southern shore towards Rickety and coldrain. Just something to add more tension between him and xist; if Gira wouldn't have founded Fort Yukon, there would be little incentive for anyone to ever attack him.
Or I would add a giant mountain range between xist and me. You can even add that now, if you like. I'll even help you pick which tiles