I made a couple additional modifications to starts A (with the second-ring river wheat and gems) and D (with the second-ring hill pig that Miguelito mentioned) to hopefully compensate for some of the issues mentioned.
Start A:
[EDIT: Start D superseded; see below]
If further compensation is needed, I can try to do something with their parts of the map; I'll randomize and post screenshots and pick options to player threads shortly.
I already rolled pick options in advance as well - just have to assign them to players and starts now:
Alpha:
Cassiel (Philosophical, Industrious, Adaptive) of the Grigori, with Mining OR Masonry
Rhoanna (Expansive, Financial) of the Hippus, with Animal Husbandry OR Calendar
Arendel Phaedra (Spiritual, Creative) of the Ljosalfar, with Cartography OR Fishing OR Hunting
Beta:
Capria (Spiritual, Financial) of the Bannor, with Cartography OR Fishing OR Hunting
Decius (Organized, Raiders) of the Malakim, with Mysticism
Cardith Lorda (Philosophical, Expansive, Adaptive) of the Kuriotates, with Animal Husbandry OR Calendar
Gamma:
Hannah the Irin (Financial, Raiders, Insane) of the Lanun, with Cartography OR Fishing OR Hunting
Einon Logos (Philosophical, Charismatic) of the Elohim, with Mysticism
Garrim Gyr (Financial, Arcane) of the Luchuirp, with Mining OR Masonry
Delta:
Keelyn (Creative, Summoner, Ingenuity) of the Balseraphs, with Animal Husbandry OR Calendar
Shekinah (Creative, Arcane) of the Sidar, with Mysticism
Arturus Thorne (Industrious, Organized, Ingenuity) of the Khazad, with Mining OR Masonry
Epsilon:
Alexis (Philosophical, Aggressive) of the Calabim, with Cartography OR Fishing OR Hunting
Tebryn Arbandi (Arcane, Summoner) of the Sheaim, with Mysticism
Sheelba (Aggressive, Organized) of the Clan of Embers, with no additional tech
Zeta:
Valledia the Even (Organized, Arcane, Ingenuity) of the Amurites, with Mysticism
Auric Ulvin (Charismatic, Arcane, Agnostic) of the Illians, with Cartography OR Fishing OR Hunting
Charadon (Aggressive, Charismatic, Barbarian) of the Doviello, with no additional tech
My son used to have a Jimmy Neutron game when he was very young. It was a platform jumper, and it was easy to miss a jump and die. When that happened, Jimmy would say, "Of course, that's not what *really* happened," and the game would automatically reload to a spot before the missed jump. It's easy to fall into that mindset in single player games, where an early barb loss can really mess up your game. After the disastrous end to the last PBEM game, I think we need to establish rules on reloading the save, preferably before the picking stage.
1. Absolute ironman. No reloads, ever, under any circumstances.
2. Reload for egregious misclicks or erroneous movement...
2a. based on player judgement.
2b. based on lurker judgement.
3. Reload anything but combat results.
I lean toward number 2a, but that's also the fuzziest rule and carries the danger of rules lawyering. Number 1 is what everyone in a pitboss game accepts as the normal course of the game.
Note that not being able to reload that early 98% loss to a barb means that AGG (and, to a lesser extent, CHA; to an even lesser extent RAI) gain in strength. It also incentivizes putting a priority on early high strength units.
Edit: I turned off my thread blocker and posted this in the wrong thread! someone please move this!
I didn't read anything, thanks for spoilering everything, Ref!
I can't move it (I don't have moderator powers in this forum) but I can quote it, and will do so.
Other global lurkers, if you have any last-minute thoughts on the starts, there may indeed be time to get them in given DaveV's post, which I'll quote in the proper thread.
Sorry for taking a long time, and possibly too late comments, but here you go.
I agree D is still a bit weaker than A - the Pig is mostly additive assuming agrarianism (tho D has a 6f tile), and also requires a off-the-beaten path tech. (Mining / Calendar are both core, even if Calendar is generally prioritised above Mining). The earlier unlock of the Incense possibly partially compensates, but still weaker. Depends on the scope of comparison.
Working backwards from these - F seems to have quite a bit less food, with three riverside grass compared to two fp and three riverside grass. E likewise, though you have to trade off the easier wines connection and it's hard to evaluate hunting + animal husbandry. I would say though that the balancing of tier two techs is tricky.
B has a harder time of commerce. Very nice food though.
God I don't know. Lots to balance (also noticing but haven't analysed happy at capital distribution). These aren't what I'd handcraft, but you're just supposed to be balancing. I'd say they're within some range of measure and everyone may well complain but it seems to me you've done your duty.
Btw, I would tend to treat floodplains as a five food tile. Sure cottages can be a thing, especially at the capital, but by that point you're making them you're past the initial snowball.
I haven't opened the map, and find it really hard to read the resources based on the overview. Absolutely no thoughts as to the distribution of land, second city sites, etc. But the key thing is copper and horse which it seems to me everyone has some access to. Other than that, make sure all the other strategics are balanced and the lairs are roughly equivalent (noting the difference between Lizards and the rest). Might have a chance to look at it while the civs are being chosen but no promises.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
Wow, thanks, Q! You're not too late, and those comments are really helpful! (If I still somehow made things worse, that's on me.)
I tried to boost D a little more more, particularly for early snowball purposes (and limiting the number of techs it needs for its capital alone) then gave F a little more flat riverside grass plus a river plains hill sheep (which can still be mined for a 1/4/1 - likewise the pig for 2/3/1 - if the player takes mining before AH). I left E unchanged since the deer is a decent foodhammer tile unimproved and the early wines should help a lot. (The sheep can also be farmed like an FP and with fewer worker turns, if AH is delayed.) B needed a closer look, and I ended up removing one of the sheep but moving its reagents to the river and bringing the river to its wine to help out with early commerce.
I apologize for the mess and difficulty of balancing them; that's very much my fault. I did try to largely follow the map here, but I'll happily mirror (or shattered-mirror) starts if asked to do so, but I secretly (and strongly) prefer making starts that are different in complicated ways so that each player has a quite different puzzle to solve ... fully recognizing that balancing such things can be a nightmare.
Thanks for the observations on floodplains too. Every time I design one of these maps, I find myself longing to create a modmodmod that nerfs agragrianism - either adding -1c to the -1h to make it less of a one-right-answer (and then maybe aristocracy can have some of its nerfs rolled back) or changing its effect entirely.
Quote:I haven't opened the map, and find it really hard to read the resources based on the overview. Absolutely no thoughts as to the distribution of land, second city sites, etc. But the key thing is copper and horse which it seems to me everyone has some access to. Other than that, make sure all the other strategics are balanced and the lairs are roughly equivalent (noting the difference between Lizards and the rest). Might have a chance to look at it while the civs are being chosen but no promises.
I tried to make sure everyone had all the strat resources, yes. There should be exactly 9 lairs on the map: Each player should be equidistant to one of each lair type (barrow, ruins, gobfort) with exactly one other player each. Hopefully!
I also enjoy non-mirrored - I just fear balancing them deeply. There are also quite a few modmods out there that adjust Agrarianism btw - one makes it +10% food.
Who I would pick:
* Coldrain - Garrim/Mining, or reroll. It's not the worst start for a Mysticism start with a PHI EC, so Enions a possibility but I don't feel comfortable with the Elohim. Lanun with no clear water is a fools pick.
* Bing - Rhoanna/Calendar, though early Horsemen is tempting, as is Arendal/Hunting - but no commerce without Calendar makes this clear-cut.
* Xist - Tebryn/Myst is the fun play. Alexis/Hunting is there, with lots of free beakers on a strong civ but limited short-term pay-off - they wouldn't normally be going that way. I don't like Sheelba. Probably this all adds up to Alexis or reroll, unless someone feels like meming (though Tebryn is a beast if you can keep up, and there is guaranteed mana). I'd lean Alexis as I like the Hunters and haven't played clan in a while.
* Brian - oof. As tough as it is with floodplains, this is easily Auric/Hunting. See Alexis above - plus the meh deer tile, this is off the beaten track besides military benefit. Valledia is imo too slow, even if Mig showed they can be pulled off. Charadon hates these distances. Auric beats reroll here IMO.
*Auro - ooh this is interesting. Decius is a write-off, Capria/Hunting is a vanilla interesting pick, but I'd lean Cardith/Calendar. It's tough without the third ring and the slightly barren map. But Kuriotates, as much as I find them challenging to play, are pretty strong, and there's a few resources at the capital. I wonder if revealing the third ring would be appropriate? Possible AH wins - you can go Corn-1t Wines-Cow-Wines - though t1 Agrarianism is strong.
* DaveV - I'd go Keelyn/Calendar, though all of them are decent picks if you're interested in playing those civs more. AH is a mistake IMO here - though I'd consider moving 2E depending on what's in the fog.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
Sorry Ref for no reply, although I feel like I really can't contribute much in terms of balance assessment, as I clearly still don't understand how the Eitb economy works. So I was just commenting based on how I'd feel as a player looking at the starts, and my frustration the last 2 games was telling that really I should take Agri because that's what you're supposed to do, but tiles like plains wheat made it feel bad. But of course it's a legit tile if that's taken into account.
The map looks lovely. Would you consider adding some islands to fight over in the north and south seas? Just to give a little more incentive for boats, which haven't been prominent lately...
Looking at Brian's start, I feel like even with hunting maybe I'd rather just tech Calendar and farm FP meanwhile. PH deer looks like a trap, you just end up with tons of workers?
Definitely no need to apologize - thanks for commenting at all! (And honestly, I feel like I'm in the same boat in terms of EitB balance assessment...)
I did try to think of a way to make islands work in the north and south seas, but I feared (and fear) I couldn't balance them. I'm hoping the islands in the two central seas, each with three civs in reach, will create enough play. In addition to the map's only dyes and assorted other resources of various rarities, they contain the map's only Graveyards (for a roll of the dice) and the barb units I mentioned: A gorilla "guarding" each island for hunters to catch. I didn't make the islands super-powerful to own, but with room for 2-3 good to decent cities each and the consequent overseas trade routes, I hope they'll be worth fighting for anyway. I'll at least try to think about outer-sea islands too some more as well, in case there's a good option I'm overlooking....
Also: I tried to even out the luxury distribution a little bit. Latest WBsave attached in case anyone wants a look.
xist - why no Sheelba? Personal preference? Are they more of a rush civ and don't like distances? Tebryn sounds very fun but hard to pull off. Calabim always felt stale to me, like you'll never arrive at the cool toys and it's just about somewhat weird axemen - otoh on the large map and fast start that assessment is probably wrong, and Phi could help a beeline?
Bing - Arendel would be a personal favourite, but Rhoanna's techs seem difficult to beat. How long does Calendar take if not picked? Pig out of the gate sounds petty nice, although of course Agri rice is 6y as well.
Dave - looking much forward to puppet madness. The start even likes calendar a lot. Favourite to win?
Auror - was quick you pick Kurios, and I'd have done the same over reroll. He already admitted that AH over calendar was wrong, pity he locked in so fast (I'm a lenient type and probably would vote in favour if he'd ask to adjust)
Coldrain- guess I'd reroll for AH (/ hunting), even though golden hammers are what they are...
Brian - I don't think Amurites would be any less viable than in my game, but Auric seems little worse (guess I'd miss spellstaves) and has other fun stuff on top. Would you go straight for the priests though, or beeline mages? They do have ice golems as well right? Well probably priests to keep safe and maybe cause some mischief on the way to sorcery
