[PB79] MirOh No, what am I doing?

[Miro]

You make me say the strangest things. I said you might have to build some wealth. Stay at war if you think you can do more damage.

That being said, ya that army is dead. Very very risky. He could have had a stack coming over anyways. Even successful its a high price.  Hopefully Xist has nothing and Gira reopens borders and you can retreat. If he doesn't go 1N and pillage rds where you are and on old city site. Maybe the rd on Gira hill too.

I like having fun with it, but I genuinely thought that one was true. I guess you haven't seen much of the eco/tech situation, but I feel pressure after seeing xist's Bombers and Gira's loaded Carriers hitting the field. I don't think I can make another major offensive anytime soon, Battleships sitting in xist's canal make him look so safe.

I'm building some infrastructure first, but a lot of Wealth building will start in a few turns and maybe I'll feel more comfortable then.

Do the city razings help you catch back at all in GNP?

I'll check charts next turn, but short answer seems like it doesn't. Or at least not enough. Losing Blood On Clock was brutal and I'm finishing up another University in 2T so I can start a new Oxford. More on tech belowwww

[Miro]

T263:

Xist finished the Eiffel Tower, declined my peace offer, and wiped that stack. Hurts, but I still seem to have more military than him, so I'm tapering military production down to just 3 - 5 cities for now. He also didn't whip this turn, so don't think he's trying to blitz right now.
Xist still has peace on his mind, though! Sent me a return offer. I'll have to get with my accountant on this one.



Xist's forces are heavily damaged and I deleted my 6 surviving units so he wouldn't gain any experience.



Gira didn't open borders back up. I offered coldrain open borders again. He might dislike me, but he might still want to promote war opportunities so xist and I keep exhausting ourselves.

I'm surprised about how xist kept building infrastructure during our war -- I'm so used to going full throttle in one direction or the other. I see it worked out for him and maybe that's just because of how late game defender's advantage works (Q1 below).

I'm also worried about coldrain DoW soon. He doesn't have much incentive to unless he's worried I'm getting far ahead, but his army could cause serious strain for me. I'll start raising defenses in the east.
Gira hasn't built any Transports and his 7 East Indiamen have stayed scattered, so not worried about his intervention.


Tech:




Misleading totals.
T264: Gira will finish the +7,000 Plastic and xist will finish the +2,400 Fascism.
T265: coldrain will finish the +4,000 Artillery.
I have 0 investment in Radio and a small bank ~1,000g. It would take ~9 turns to get Radio w/o Wealth building (starting soon).

So it's more like : 88,000 vs 90,500 vs 85,000 vs 90,500.

I also don't know what techs to actually go for this late into the game or what future warfare will look like. Radio for Bombers seems appropriate. Submarines don't seem great, but I saw plenty in other late game screenshots.

I figure I mainly need Rocketry and Fission. Other than that ??? (Q2 below)



I also have a 77% chance of Gloomhaven popping a Great Merchant in ~15 turns and could go for Refrigeration + Sid's Sushi. I'm jealous of xist's Cereal Mills. I'd get 5 Food and 20 Culture in all cities with Sushi.



City counts look good, though!

Questions:
(Q1): In this Battleship, pre-Nuke era, at what point do you consider it a stalemate? I had all cities producing military, but I think xist's mixed production idea was better after we got enough Battleships out to stay safe.

(Q2): Post-Battleships, what late game techs even matter? Biology, Flight, and everything for Nukes seem clear. Ecology to help with fallout? I've never seen nukes.
(Q2a): Is there some end goal of Modern Armor / Mechanized Infantry / Mobile Artillery / Advanced Flight, or are nukes the end goal and we all just freak out after that?
(Q2b): Is there any advantage to finishing Manhattan Project yourself besides prepping city builds around its timing?

(Q3): Are Paratroopers ever used? Want to know if I need to be prepared for random jumps. I assume they lose all movement points after dropping.

[Mjmd]

Q1) I mean you needed to do damage, but ya I don't' know how much more you can hurt him until nukes. I'm not sure I would cut back military production that much, but certainly wealth builds are probably going to be needed.
Q2a) I've never played past nukes. Did get to advanced flight, but ya nukes are pretty key tech.
Q2b) Your opponent may not build it and may be faking you out. Never seen it, but I thought an opponent might be, but turns out they were just slow. Here with Xist having Kremlin I would expect him to.
Q2c) It is good you've done damage. I do think you are disadvantaged in nuke era due to him having Kremlin. I do like going for sid sushi.
Q3) Watch out for gg paratroopers. I had my oxford wall street cereal mills corp capital killed via ICBM and a morale paratrooper. Have I mentioned you might want to road over some of your railroads so you can place random out of date troops alone the single line of railroads.
Q4) It should be noted carrying nukes was moved to tactical submarines recently. If you've seen subs in other multiplayer screenshots it was almost certainly for carrying tactical nukes. Without Kremlin these are probably the only ones you will build (although with sid sushi maybe some ICBMs get in there).

Just a note for nukes tactical nukes have been reduced to only hitting 1 tile. Cost on both significant increase. That being said, still very good.

[Miro]

Have I mentioned you might want to road over some of your railroads so you can place random out of date troops alone the single line of railroads.

I remember you explaining why railroads everywhere is bad, but I already had the railroads built. Am I able to build roads and replace the railroads? I don't see that option.

[Miro]

T272 Update:

Notttt looking good! Before I get into all of it, I'm curious if my T271 message has any chance of being understood. (Q1 at bottom)

I sent this to Gira and coldrain:



Any chance the 26 stands out?

Adding some notable events for context:
T263: xist completes Eiffel Tower.
T265: I researched Drama.

T267: xist razed Antium (30 cities to 29). xist researched Fascism.
T268: I (re)built Oxford University. I rebuilt a city in Antium (29 back to 30).
T269: xist razed Rome (30 cities to 29). xist researched Mass Media.
T270: xist completed Cristo Redentor and switched to Free Speech. xist researched Music.
T271: xist switched to Vassalage and Police State. xist researched Military Tradition.

Does 26 make more sense now?

I meant it to say:
HOLY FUCK HE'S BUILDING 26xp UNITS, WE ALL IN TROUBLE!
But they might think I'm saying something about 26 cities.

I know he spent 1 GG to kill Blood on Clock, but he still has so many GGs from our wars and wiping one of coldrain's stacks in their war from a long time ago. Now with West Point + Vassalage and I haven't seen any of his GGs in a long time, I think he settled them to start producing Commando units.

West Point (5) + Vassalage (2) + Barracks (2) it would still take 9 GGs, or 8 if he goes into Theocracy. I've had 9 GGs (spent 2) this game and xist has killed more of my units, so he probably has more overall exp.

Gira replied with:


He's not happy about 3 "please go to war" messages lol. I think I'm gonna stay alone in this war and xist could be unstoppable soon.

Onto the update, with an older pic to remind lurkers of cities in the area:


T264:
Lixus had 26 Tanks, now 16. He may blitz Rome (I lost the Cow tile 2N of Rome), Republic o Rome, or Mediolanum in the future with Bomber + Tanks, but I'm mostly worried about his Transports for now.

T265:
I completed Drama - I feel dumb again. I always write it off as a waste, but in my last tech post I realized I was the only one without it and I'm losing tiles at the Carthage-China border. It's so cheap at this point and Theaters (Pavilions) are so cheap, too. So I added Pavilions at my border cities.

Coldrain sent Fish for Fish (I reciprocated), he did not reopen borders.

I noticed another teleport attack available if Gira reopens borders and xist's Hermitage island (Carthago Nova, north sea) is able to take a tile from Gira, but that seems far off.

T266:
Quiet. Lots of bombing on my western border. I'm bolstering defenses in my 3 cities; Bombers + Tanks having 3 attack options is rough.

The bombing is pretty cool. Xist's air superiority lets gives him free range to bomb and this gives a distinct feel to WWII-era combat I've never experienced in civ4. I always just crash, crash, crash in SP once I've built up a big enough army, never slow siege with bombing runs.

T267:
xist captured and razed Antium! I didn't realize that double movement on hills even works in enemy territory, I only knew that Antium was safe from a Tank blitz. I left only 6 units there: a Tank, Knight, Cannon, Axeman, and 2 Cho-ko-nu.



T268:
I see partly why neither Gira nor coldrain want to do anything about xist:
  

They're being paid nicely. Looks like xist also gave back coldrain the city he took back in their war, no clue when that happened.

I (re)built Oxford University in Mansions of Madness (southeastern coastal city). I built a new city on Antium's remains: Pan Fall o Rome. Pandemic: Fall of Rome is a Rome-themed Pandemic game and I always love Pandemic games! They're co-op where your characters try to develop a cure for diseases while preventing outbreaks in cities that seem to get worse and worse. I've never played this Rome version, but its name seemed fitting for all that's going on around Rome right now 

T269:
xist captured and razed Rome. Called it! His Bombers caused lots of collateral damage there and cleared many railroads to help protect a retreat.



That's 41 Tanks there in total. The railroad clearing is so cool! I wasn't even paying attention to that, I thought he just wanted to keep hitting my towns and mines to hurt my economy/production.

Unfortunately for xist, I had enough Workers nearby to juuuuust barely rebuild 3 railroads and wipe the stack. Then my Republic o Rome Tanks were able to hit and safely retreat back next to RoR. Some Infantry and Marines were left on the border after hitting the Tanks, but overall I can be happy about the crack back.





I also realize I've been neglecting Fighters (only built in 2 - 5 cities, 2 Airports) and need them to protect from Bombers, so I'm ramping up their production.

City overview:


T270:
xist completed Cristo Redentor and switched to Free Speech. I realized that he's completing Military Tradition and West Point -> Commando was on the table around this time. I settled my 7 GGs in Small World. I'm sure keeping a few around for now is the better play, but I'm exhausted this game and this pace really gets to me, so I just wanted to stop seeing these guys sit around for 50 - 100 turns for a potential tactic I'll never notice anyways. If I get another GG and West Point, I can do the Commando shenanigans, too. 2 turn anarchy for Vassalage could unlock it, too, but that seems too expensive.

I built Hermitage in Mediolanum to help try and get some tiles for safety.



His navy moved from his lake to Motya, seems like he'll target Salem. I don't think I should spend much to defend it.

T272:

I founded Thru the Ages on Rome's ruins. I'd write a paragraph, but the city will probably be gone before you'd read it 
It's a long game where you build a civilization up from scratch, going from ancient times to modern day, managing your economy, military, and culture. Sound familiar? 



His navy moved in position, so I retreated next to Telestrations (he had a teleport available to wipe Salem this turn, can't hide there. Too scared to keep a whole navy in a fort or Mechs v Minions (low defenses).

My workers spent time rebuilding mines and railroads this turn, but I realized afterwards that I could have built a Fort 1NW of Mechs v Minions and added +1 range to my Battleships, then I'd be in range to strike his navy. It'd have been beautiful. Fingers crossed for next turn!

I'll finish Radio next turn, but xist is already saving up for Rocketry. I'm not sure that I have time to go for Sushi if I need to have nukes ready.

I finally put up intercept Fighters. Worried I'll lose them all next turn. I could have tried to hit tiles on Salem island to lure his intercepting Fighters into good fights for me, but I'm too tired for that and the game already seems like it's over.



He might have more Fighters if the ones flying don't count when you check cities, idk how that works.

Charts/Dems:




Questions:
(Q1): Did my (26) message have any chance of being understood?
(Q2): Assuming they didn't understand the message, do you think Gira+coldrain notice that xist can make Commando units and are as concerned as I am? Heck, maybe they just want the game to end, too.
(Q3): How do games usually -end-? I wouldn't want to gauge opinions in the player's thread too early. If Gira/coldrain don't think xist is running away with it, I don't want to influence them into war from outside of the game.

[Mjmd]

Ouch. Ya I was worried about that border at bombers. I should have warned about guerrilla 2 shenanigans. Commodore had a game where he went celts (cth) and had a lot of fun with it, but it comes up otherwise specifically to enable 2 movers that aren't mounted / tanks.

BTW I recommend sam infantry and spread them out. Take the extra interception % promotions. Again, defending with pure fighters on land is pretty easy to get around and win. Once you have sams up, THEN you can start setting fighters on intercept. You just have to have a good coverage with sams.

Q1) USUALLY gold in a message with war means that is when you want the person to join you. 26 turns is pretty far away and rather specific for being so far away and it obviously makes more sense to ask to join them now so it should strike them as odd. It is possible they understand, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Q2) They probably want you two to keep killing each other. It is kind of the ideal situation where you have #1 and #2 hammering at each other. That being said I don't think they realize that Xist has multiple long term advantages even if you have higher score.
Q3) Usually one person ends up far enough ahead people concede. Once all relevant players concede the game is over. Actual victory conditions happen, but it is rare. Again, I expect fireworks at nukes. Sadly you will be disadvantaged here.

[El Grillo]

Through the Ages is the game I play now if I ever feel tempted to play Civ, because I know I'll finish a game instead of quitting on turn 75

I know the civforum.de meta is to pay more gpt for resources than would normally be the case at RB (where it tends to only come up for corporation inputs), but those are some pricey wines!

[greenline]

This is some of the most brutal late game warfare I've ever seen in a greens game. Don't feel bad for being tripped up by a lot of the mechanics of industrial era civ warfare - few players get an opportunity to see how it works in practice.

[Miro]

Through the Ages is the game I play now if I ever feel tempted to play Civ, because I know I'll finish a game instead of quitting on turn 75

I know the civforum.de meta is to pay more gpt for resources than would normally be the case at RB (where it tends to only come up for corporation inputs), but those are some pricey wines!

It's a lot of fun! Just hard to get others into it - the mechanics seem daunting at first. Seems like xist isn't a fan, he destroyed it again  

And coldrain isn't paying 60g for Wine, xist is giving him 60 gpt and Wine for free! He's been buying his friends, clever stuff. Hell, I'll be his friend for 60gpt and Wine.

This is some of the most brutal late game warfare I've ever seen in a greens game. Don't feel bad for being tripped up by a lot of the mechanics of industrial era civ warfare - few players get an opportunity to see how it works in practice.

That's a good point. When I have the game loaded up, I can be doom-and-gloom about the smallest things going wrong, but within a few hours I can distance myself from it and be happy about the experience we're all sharing. Sometimes I want the win, sometimes I want to tackle xist and drag us both down to 4th place, and sometimes I'm just positive about the game overall (but not the pace - a month of warfare is draining!)

[Miro]

T276 Update:

T273:

xist's navy (1S of Motya) leashing his 6-move Transports as he hits Salem.



I finished Radio. My Fighters on intercept actually traded well! I lost 5, xist lost 6 + 1 Bomber. His 5 Marines hit Salem (5 Infantry). A single hero saved the city! I should've named him. If he survives to T277, I'll name him a hero.
My southern navy (76 ships) could fight his southern navy (99 ships), but after vodka and manual testing, collateral from 36 Battleships just isn't enough! I'd end up losing 2× as many hammers as I'd kill.
Why did I get Radio? I don't even want Bombers. Shit.

T274:

xist switched to Org Religion + Bureacuracy + Representation and completed Mt. Rushmore. His navy is moving north through his canal.



All of his Battleships took Combat I & Combat II (to stay safe from south navy last turn?), so no 7-moving from that navy.
I checked soldier counts again to see if his Transport might be empty/bluffing as he targets my north shore and island, but they seem real (30 - 40 units unaccounted for).
I set up an empty invasion force in the south to help deter him from pushing north.

AND OH. Guess what the devs added to this game?! Bunkers! Holy shit. Here I am, struggling against Bombers for the past week or two and I've never built a Bunker in my life, forgot they existed. I whipped them in Mediolanum and Wingspan as they're being threatened this turn.

T275:
This war started on T245 - we've been warring for a month!
xist razed Thru the Ages with 9 Tanks (after a lot of bombing)
xist built West Point and switched to Theocracy, Vassalage, and Police State.    

I sent 8 Tanks to clear 8 of his. I'm happy to trade Tanks; his Tank stack can threaten 2 cities, so lowering Tank counts helps me.



T276:

Peace at last! Xist comes to us with a peace offer and we're happy to accept and put an end to all of this.

 

Wait, wtf is this? Why is there a page 2 to the peace treaty? Gtfo. Now I understand when the AI gets mad about "arrogant demands". 

He might have meant some weird message like, "Give coldrain these 2 cities and we'll have peace", but A) this breaks the 1-city per trade rule and B) the fuck?

His navy moved back south and could take Salem next turn. I bolstered Mechs v Minions (via Transports) and I'm whipping a Bunker there.

I asked Gira for open borders. Then, I moved my northern navy to a threatening position:



I sent a threat back to xist:
Peace (10) for Peace (10) and Carthago Nova + Ibrossim.
I hope he takes it to mean, "If you go after my southern cities, I'm razing your northern cities."
^problem is I don't think my navy is in his vision while the pop-up is up for him. He needs Airship to scout a bit first. Also, empty Transports lol. I may be bluffin' now but that doesn't mean I won't come back later if he hits my south.

Then I sent him a regular Peace (10) for Peace (10).

Also, coldrain has been building up a nice army.

I used to think he was just going to be a bystander all game, but now he has 50 Tanks--


Questions:
(Q1): Do you have a start-of-turn checklist? After 4 - 5 months of this game, I started checking the event log at the start of each turn, then I note player techs + banks, then send out Airship recons to ID Transport and Tank locations.
(Q2): Is there any way to copy the Event Log other than manually? Idc if it comes as text or csv, it'd speed up a lot for me.
(Q3): Do custom domestic advisor screens not carry over to the next turn in MP? I always manually add the draft unhappiness column and haven't bothered to add other columns because I couldn't get it to stay when I tried before.