Horselover Fat's journal - Iskender and the Hippus

[Iskender]

Nothing important happened in-game. I'm working out the details of the resource trade agreed several turns ago with Pb (short version: he gets Gems and Wine, I get Sugar and Fine Clothes).

The reason I'm posting is that I'd like to share a C&D trick with my dear lurkers. The trick is basically adopting the repercussion #6 from this article for FFH. In other words, how to find out how many players have a tech that you cannot research yet. The trick works because the tech-known-by-others bonus is applied when you move mouse over a tech to see how many turns it takes to complete it.

The formula for FFH is off in two places - first, the base for Known Civs w/Tech modifier is not 0.3, but 0.1 and the modifier is additive with the prerequisite bonus, not cumulative.

With the formula at hand I've made an excel sheet (seen it coming? ). Check it out:



The example above is Priesthood, a tech that costs 862 beakers. Now, If you tweak the Beaker output number (it corresponds to the number of beakers displayed next to the science slider) you can set it to an amount that will show different number of turns to complete the tech depending on how many players have it already. In this example, with the set amount of beakers mousing over Priesthood will show 7 turns because one civ (Kuriotates) knows the tech. (I know that already via the F4 tech trade advisor, but it's just an example).

Good news for FFH PBEM2 folks is that although the tech known bonus itself is very low (0.01 to 0.09) it can affect research output even for raw beaker outputs much lower than 100, due to the prerequisite bonus and rounding in the formula. It works even for such low amounts as 14 raw beakers:

Let's say you make 14 beakers and chose to research Calender, a tech with a 1.2 prerequisite bonus. Now, if noone you've met knows Calendar, your modified output is:

FLOOR ( 14 * (1.2 + 0.00 ) ) = FLOOR (16.8 ) = 16

Now let's see if there's a change if one of your neighbours knows Calendar (the bonus for one civ known with the tech for a 7-player game is 0.01):

FLOOR ( 14 * (1.2 + 0.01 ) ) = FLOOR (16.94) = 16

No change here, sorry, but we're getting close. Let's try two known civs with Calendar:

FLOOR ( 14 * (1.2 + 0.02 ) ) = FLOOR (17.08 ) = 17

Bingo! This additional beaker is added every turn to your tech progress bar (and shown in the GNP in F9/demographics), so now you know that two of your neigbours have Calendar and if you tracked score increases you can make an educated guess who they are. Of course, for subtler investigations higher beaker output is needed, but if the tech has a prerequisite bonus (it's confusing in FFH, ie. it seems to be never applied to religious techs) it's possible to make some interesting inferences with 9 only beakers (increase to 11 if 3 civs have the tech) or 24 (29 if someone discovered the tech already).

Feel free to play around with the sheet. I hope I'm not reinventing the wheel here.

[Rowain]

For a change, a view from a makeshift Hippus satellite:

So your Horses can kick someone into space

[Iskender]

So your Horses can kick someone into space

They can and they will, with Cardith Lorda being the #1 candidate for the first artificial satellite of Erebus. Just look what he does here:

(it all started with Pb settling aggressively on three sugars that I and Selrahc had agreeded to split)

My reaction:

[COLOR="Lime"]I'm worried about you settling on the sugar site. I had plans for this area. Actually, we had the sugars split with Selrahc and now you claimed all of them without any notice.
[/COLOR]

Pb's compensation offer (notice the part in italics)

[COLOR="Magenta"]How about I promise to gift you a Sugar for free?

I would ask for only a tiny tiny favour in return: I noticed you have a spare Wines in your territory. I would like to ask that you make the Kuriotates your preferred trading partner for them. What that means is, you will do your best to trade one of that resource with me.

It doesn’t mean I’ll screw you over, just means so long as I offer you fair value, eg another happy resource that you don’t have (not Sugar), you’ll do your best to trade one of those resources with me.

And that takes precendence over any deals you have with anyone else, eg Calabim etc.
[/COLOR]

From the chat:

ja: can you name the resources you could trade for the wine?

[COLOR="Magenta"]
Ummm. Let's see. I'm probably going to offer Silks (not 100% sure) in return for the Wine.[/COLOR]

Now fast forward 15 turns:

[COLOR="Magenta"]Wines for Silks (as we discussed in chat)

Let me know if there's any problems.
[/COLOR]

There are:

[COLOR="Lime"]There seems to be a misunderstanding regarding the Wine. I understood our agreement as offering exclusive trading rights for Wine in exchange for Sugar. I'm currently trading the Wine with Sareln for Cotton, but I'm ready to cancel this deal as soon as you have the Sugar online. Also, is it possible for you to offer a different resource than Silk?
[/COLOR]

And that's where it's getting interesting:

[COLOR="Magenta"]No misunderstanding, I agree with what you've written regarding the Wines. I didn't plan for the deal to be dependent on the Sugar being provided first, but that's not a problem for me. I've no intention of delaying the Sugar improvements - you can see I've got two Workers over there.

However, your last question confused me. We had a chat not too long ago, where you asked what resources I intended to supply. I proposed to you then that I would offer Silks for the Wines, and you had no problem with that. Has something changed?[/COLOR]

It has, specifically:

[COLOR="Lime"]The thing is that in the meantime I got a source of Silk from Cull. I don't mind trading Wine for Fine Clothes in the long term, but there's a brief period between me getting Sugar and our Gems for Fine Clothes deal ending. Can you offer another a different for that couple of turns?
[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]I see.

Well obviously you are within your rights to do that, but I must say that I am...disappointed. As you can see from the trade screen, I have no other spare luxuries to offer at this time.

Trading Fine Clothes for Wines may be possible, I will have to consult my plans. I wasn't intending to do so.

If you change your mind re: Silks vs Wines, let me know.
[/COLOR]

See what's going on there? Pb's disappointed because I've made a trade that does not involve anything we had agreed upon in any way. And that's after settling in my face Paris-style and grabbing the Sugar in the first place. Now that just begs for some serious (in due time)

I'll wait to see his new traits before replying though. The pessimistic scenario is Raiders and the above exchange as a prelude to a Centaur Archer expedition to extort Wine and Gems from me unconditionally. If that's not the case, I think Pb's made a mistake. I really wanted to be his ally vs the Calabim, more so after he sent the Giant for aid. I would've traded him both Wine and Gems an a fair basis anyway. So with agressive settling, setting 'buffer' zones and twisting trade deals in his favour he gained a few points of happiness and a tad better strategic position but lost a potential long-term ally.

In any case I need to have a serious conversation with Bob. We need to team up to stand against Pb and Selrahc and their Towers of Divination. The problem is that I don't feel like cooperating with Bob at all. He's the guy who captured my worker just like that ignoring previous arrangements, triggering an attack of my paranioa. Also, I think the Calabim are played the wrong way. It's turn 145 and they don't even have Writing. Huh? The closer to turn 200 the more of a laughing stock Vampires and Spectres get. I'm going to have Diseased Corpses before turn 180 and then every Death pumped Spectre can kiss their diseased decomposing behinds.

In-game news flash:

A source of Horse has been discovered near my 2nd city - yay, a strategic resource! I'll have HBR in two turns (and a stables in eight) = horsies! The planned tech path is: Writing -> Trade -> Philosophy -> Way of the Wise -> Honor - > KotE -> Way of the Wicked -> Corruption of Spirit, with Hunting somewhere in between. City #9 is scheduled for turn 152, a coastal city with access to Fish. Barbarians founded a city in the southern wastelands - good news, I'd like to milk it for experience and eventually capture it. Selrahc discovered Hunting.

[Iskender]

Pb is Financial, Pb is Financial :neenernee

I don't get it, why didn't he choose Raiders? I guess it depends on the kind of victory he'd chosen to pursue. I pegged him as going for the Tower of Mastery and it makes a little sense - he might research up to Arcane Lore the hard way and get Omniscience via ToD. We'll see.

Had he chosen Raiders I would've given him Gems, Wine and a score of virgins to carry it to those degenerate megacities. With Financial this should do:

[COLOR="lime"]Hi there

I understand your disappointment, but need to act in the best interest
of my people as well. The day I'll reject a good deal when I see it
will be the day I'll have to step down as the leader of the Hippus. I
hope you understand that.[/COLOR]

Seriously, why didn't he chose Raiders? The game is accelerating, turn 220 will probably mark the beginning of the late-game, the trait he may acquire then could be: Dead. (more likely the trait for me though)

Just saw Sareln's settler near the barbarian city in the southern wastelands:



(He's 4 tiles NE of the barb city)

Not good. Our close borders might spark tensions. I made an attempt to settle it diplomatically:

[COLOR="Lime"]Hi there

First let me express apprieciation for the Wine vs Cotton deal we have for such a long time. I understand that I was basically given the Cotton for free since you were (or still are) below your happy cap. As I wrote the other day I promised Pb exclusive trading rights to my Wine, but so far he's been unable to provide a fair equivalent for the Wine, so our deal can go on for some more time (in the best case for about 18 more turns).

I write for a different reason though. I just saw your settler north-west of Schwarzwald. Using my mentat skills I deduced that you want settle somewhere in that area. Now, to avoid confusion let me explain what my plans for that area are. There's a barbarian city south of one of my cities:

http://i52.tinypic.com/j9ym3o.jpg

I would like to use the city as training grounds for my troops. That is, to keep it barbarian and let it spawn troops for some time, and eventually capture it. I'd like to hear to what extent does it collide with your plans (if it does) so we can work out a peaceful solution.

Cheers, Iskender[/COLOR]

[Iskender]

K***a! Pb IS Raiders! There's some stupid trait update bug in FFH. In turn 146 it still shown Financial. I stumbled upon Raiders this turn, quite by accident, after i had played my turn, which includes moving my combat IV warcry adventurer (the only warcry guy left) from the capital to harass the barb city in the south, and also leaving two workers unprotected next to Pb's border.

Also, Pb's getting the Wine:

[COLOR="Lime"]All right, I've found out the solution to make the deal work for both of us. I'm ready to trade the Wine now, so feel free to make the offer and I'll accept it.

Iskender[/COLOR]

I'll comment on Bob's message in the evening.

[Mardoc]

K***a! Pb IS Raiders! There's some stupid trait update bug in FFH. In turn 146 it still shown Financial.

Looking at the tech issue thread, it appears that you're before PB in the turn order; maybe he just hadn't gotten the chance to change his traits yet.

[Iskender]

I checked it on turn 146 and it was still Financial, so either he got to choose his new trait on turn 146 or there's some kind of a display bug.

Bob sent everyone a message entitled "Selrahc and the Tower of Divination". I was half-expecting a Maksim-style story about some epic adventures of Selrahc in the Tower, but it turned out to be only a drama about High Priests of Winter.

Before I had the chance to reply I had a chat with Pb:

ja: so what do you think about Bob's message?

pocketbeetle: Hah, was kind of wondering your opinion also.
I'm not too worried

He's right that Selrahc is going for Tower of Divination
16:45
I even helped him with Sun mana

ja: i think he's exaggerating a bit. a precise assassin strikes could take out the priest

*priests

pocketbeetle: although he's building his own node now, so it only speeded him up a bit

yes, I agree too

High mobility to stay away, then strike with assassins

ja: why would you help him?
16:46
pocketbeetle: It was a pretty simple palace mana for palace mana deal, with a little extra trimming

I don't want to have to build a Law mana node of my own, because Law is so sucky
16:47
ja: a nice deal. i wish i could do the same. my palace mana is horse though

pocketbeetle: Yeah, Hippus mana is pretty bad. Air is the only really useful one
16:48
If you want a sun loan eventually, feel free to ask, always an option

ja: i could use it, but i'm not sure if i could offer anything in return
16:49
pocketbeetle: Always lots to offer, we can work something out

How are things down South?

ja: have you read my message re. wines?

i'll be able to trade it already
16:50
pocketbeetle: I did yes, although was waiting to see what was happening ingame

ja: a barb city has appeared in the south. imagine that...

pocketbeetle: And I really appreciate it. Yeah there's a barb city in the far NW also, my workboat saw it
16:51
ja: i discovered HBR. turn 147, yeah

pocketbeetle: Do you have Copper at all?

ja: not really
16:52
pocketbeetle: So what are you going to do for defense if the Calabim come knocking? I saw the hero archer btw, very nice

ja: cats
16:53
i mean not of the feline kind

pocketbeetle: And then HA to follow up. I see, good idea

lol

Well, I was going to offer a Copper loan so you could upgrade melee units when you have BW, but I guess it's not worth much to you?
16:54
ja: not anymore i think
16:55
i could arm a couple of warriors but that wouldn't make much difference

pocketbeetle: I understand. Well if you do need anything, let me know. The door's open.
16:56
ja: allright, thanks

If Pb had any plans to choke me, I hope mentioning these cooled him off a bit:



Sareln also replied and I saw it and it was not good:

[COLOR="Silver"]Well, when I dispatched the settler I'm pretty sure there wasn't a
barb city there . I was originally planning on founding one south
of the wheat. It's a marginal location, but I wanted to keep
expanding while waiting for Bronzeworking to come in so I can start
pushing the middle with some real industry. When I noticed the city
last turn I contacted Bob to get the city removed, he's planning on
razing the city in the near future.

For now, I think I may want to rejigger my dotmap to get two cities
down there, one which can be founded immediately, and another which
can be founded after the barbarian removal. I sorta figured the land
was a no-man's that no-one cared about, but clearly I'm mistaken on
that point . Let me think on it.
[/COLOR]

[COLOR="silver"]Consulted with Bob, I think I'm sticking with my original plan. There
are plenty of Barbs around, including some nice juicy full goblin
forts in the center of the map. There is at least one encompassed by
my borders, and I would be happy to let you in to kill them if it's XP
you're looking for.

The turn should be along shortly.[/COLOR]

He basically said there that he ignores my wishes and he's called in Bob to back him up. I wish Dave was the turnplayer. I had a perfect quote ready:

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

Instead, I tried to appeal to Bob's and Sareln's reason (and fear of Selrahc's priests) and sent them this:

[COLOR="Lime"]Hello

First, let me break the bad news: for at least 5 turns Pb has been
delivering Selrahc sun mana. (You can see it in the diplomatic
relations screen.) In return Selrahc will help Pb build his own Tower.


It means if we're going to get outpaced if we don't work something
out. We're quite far away from that as yet another issue has cropped
up between us: that barb city in the south. Let me express my
dissatisfaction with the manner this issue is being handled. The city
is two tiles away from my borders and I've just been told there's a
military expedition sent to pacify it. I can't accept that. I consider
the city within my area of influence by virtue of it's proximity to my
other cities. I wanted to capture the city for myself in the future,
but I'm ready to negotiate that part. In any case sending a stack to
that city is a non-option as far as I'm concerned. I hope that doesn't
sound too demanding, I'd like us to eventually achieve the level of
trust that Pb and Selrahc have.

Going back to the Priests: Assassins are a perfect counter. Combat
five strength nine priests should be designated stack defenders. If a
strong unit redlined them an assassin could finish the priest. Of
course it would take many attempts, but then againe three successful
attempts would do as priests are irreplaceable. The idea of keeping
the priests in check appeals to me, but I'd like to see if Selrahc is
really going for Theology. I think he'd rather take Sorcery and spam
summons.

Iskender[/COLOR]

[Ilios]

Originally Posted by HAL
I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

[Iskender]

The one below have the caption:

[SIZE="5"]DIPLOMACY FAIL[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Red"]Dang, so my guess was correct. I suppose in hindsight the Tower is a fairly obvious play. He's also going to get Law from Cull, so if he does want to screw around with specters or something he'll have several free nodes to boost them. I suppose we can assume that PB must have some sort of NAP type agreement with Selrahc- no reason why he'd help him become more powerful otherwise. PB is also sporting Raiders now, so presumably he's going to declare on one of us soon. Judging by his techs reflected on the trading screen, I'd guess that he'll be bringing lots of centaur chargers, and possibly knights + Hemah depending on what he takes as his free tech.

Regarding the barb city, I honestly didn't think it would be much of an issue. The barbs helpfully founded in the no-settling zone, so by the terms of the peace treaty you can't keep the town. My intention is to burn it to the ground and allow Sareln to settle slightly to the East. That will still leave plenty of room for you to place cities elsewhere in the south. I don't want to be the bully here, especially since I think that you're right that we need to work together to avoid being overrun by PB & Selrahc, but I don't see myself as being in the wrong, and you can't back up any demands with military for like 50 more turns. I'm open for negotiating where Sareln can found in the area once I burn the city, so as to minimally infringe on your future city sites. If you have some sort of concession to offer for me to leave the city in unmolested, then let me know. I would prefer that we move past this issue ASAP so that we can work on joint military plans, so apologies if I'm being kind of curt here.


Actually, on the subject of cooperation, I'm not too interested in us slowly building up trust relations at this point through gradual trades or information sharing. I see a very clear and imminent danger from the northern civs, so I'm happy to be fully open with intel and cooperation immediately as long as you'll reciprocate in kind and keep everything just between the three of us. I think it's evident that we're going to have to work together in order to avoid being picked apart- I think the balance of power now is such that if either you or I fall, then victory will become impossible for the survivor.[/COLOR]

I mentioned the other day that I don't particularly look forward to cooperating with Bob. I'm not used to cooperate with someone who's making threats in one paragraph and demands full trust in the other. I considered the following options:

1. Writing a patronizing letter riduculing his analysis (Selrahc getting Law mana from Cull, Pb with Knights+Hemah: WTF?) and a some kind of hostile statment about consequences their actions. I'd make me feel better, but the time is not ripe for that. Our graphs are too wide apart.

2. Since negotiations are out of question as my sine qua non condition (leaving the barb city for me) was met with threats I could just swallow it and let them do what they want for the greater good of teaming up against the greater evil.

3. Pretending to cooperate while waiting for the first opportunity to get back at them.

I've decided for #3.

Before I replied via email, Bob approached me on chat. Here's the abridged version (with my comments in italics):

bobchillingworth: okay well with the barb city, I honestly didn't think it would be much of an issue, or I would have let you know

I don't plan on keeping it or anything

just going to burn it so sareln can found a decent city (closer to me than the barbs are now)

I'm happy to give you the pillage money if you want it

ja: sareln's version is that he wants to settle two cities

bobchillingworth: Oh, two?

I need to coordinate with him better...

my dotmap just had one

ja: one now and the other after razing barb city

bobchillingworth: okay, I'm not entirely sure which the "one now" is, but I think it was a city he wanted to cram in near Prespur, but which I'll probably found myself in a couple turns

ja: here it goes:

"For now, I think I may want to rejigger my dotmap to get two cities
down there, one which can be founded immediately, and another which
can be founded after the barbarian removal. "

bobchillingworth: yeah the one immediatly directly borders prespur

so I think it's more just like one city now

I believe 1E of the barb city

ja: does he have the second setter already?

bobchillingworth: I don't think so

ja: so there's no rush in razing the barb city?

bobchillingworth: well since he's probably not going to actually found two

because I'm going to take the spot near prespur for myself

[So that's the idea. Bob wants to plant a city to his east and push Sareln into the non-settling area between us. They somehow failed to admit it in the first place and tried to promote some Sareln's two-city BS. So much for the trust...]

then it does need to be razed soon

I don't care who razes it

if you want the exp

farming the barbs for exp won't work well tho. They're just going to slowly make warriors which horsemen won't even have fantastic odds on

[that's the whole point of farming barbs - you do it with expendable units at low odds to get max xp per fight. feeding an uber-unit with 99% 2xp battles seems cool but it's a waste of barbarian training dummies]

ja: so when do you plan to have it razed?

bobchillingworth: about 5 turns
21:09
ja: all right then

[So i 'agreed'. The rest is a non-committal BS smalltalk on my part. I didn't leave it out as there are some gems of Bob's ignorance that you might find amusing]

in exchange i might ask for a favor in the future
[not really. that's just me trying to make the decision sound genuine]

21:10
bobchillingworth: hmm. Alright, but I reserve the right to refuse if it's entirely out of proportion

but yeah if you want copper or something for free later, fine
21:11
ja: sure. btw. i just gave you the gems as agreed

bobchillingworth: k, thank you

okay as for PB and selrahc

I guess they must be working together pretty closely...

I feel stupid not realized that pb was gifting selrahc the sun mana

wouldn't have included him in the email

If I had known

of well

oh*
21:12
ja: has pb replied to your message?
21:13
bobchillingworth: no

presumably he just fowarded it on selrahc and decided to sit on it

Cull did, but forgot to hit reply all

ja: i guess so

bobchillingworth: he's willing to assist if someone is attacked, but correctly stated that he can't really do much
21:14
The way I think this is going to play out, at least without you and I doing something, is PB will probably attack you (going after one of us with that new raiders trait), while Selrahc will target me
21:15
did you get that message? said you went offline briefly...

ja: yes
21:16
you mean this one:

The way I think this is going to play out, at least without you and I doing something, is PB will probably attack you (going after one of us with that new raiders trait), while Selrahc will target me

bobchillingworth: right

anyway, the best counter for either Mages or High Priests is assassins, as you said

ja: i guess it's not going to happen soon if they're after towers of div.
21:17
bobchillingworth: especially sareln's, especially his hero

which is one of the reasons I'm working so hard to get him back on his feet

hero assassin uses mirror to injure a high priest, then finishes it off for real

[only that assassins target the weakest unit in the stack... (I'm quite sure Chanelling III is not enough to make a 9 str unit a default marksman target)]

repeat three times

in theory

anyway

ja: sareln mentioned to me something about Bronze Working. will he be able to get to Poisons at all?
21:18
bobchillingworth: I think he wants BW first to clear jungle at his capital

the poisons

I don't know, time is a real issue for both of us

I still need a little while to get vampires...

I can spam catapults and moroi, but that's not a fantastic deterent
21:19
ja: it still takes 500+ hammers to complete the tower

bobchillingworth: that much?
21:20
that's good. Unless they got an engineer from an event... I haven't noticed any being born in the log, but I'm not sure if the "engineer from the wildnerness" shows up there

also selrahc is in a golden age now

from bone palace
21:21
ja: yes. he can get about 30 hammers in the capital

per turn that is

bobchillingworth: k

could be worse
21:22
I got writing recently, I think Dave offered to do an analysis for me of what techs everyone has

I can let you know the results for PB an Selrahc

[that's a gem. I'm sure Dave can do great C&D, but come on, if you want to see Pb's techs just press F4!]

see what techs they're likely to get from the Tower
21:23
my guess would be Knights for PB and Theo for Selrahc, but that's more based on what I personally would do in their positons than any basis in fact

ja: knights are nice. i'd take them myself

[I wouldn't actually. I find Beasts of Agares much more interesting]

bobchillingworth: plus it unlocks his more realistic hero
21:24
the one everyone forgets about

ja: yeah, because he's in the shadow of the true hero

bobchillingworth: doesn't even merit a civilopedia description :P
21:25
ja: wow, i didn't know that

too bad

bobchillingworth: I think you're okay if you can get a lot of HA

I'm going to rely on chariots, catapults, lots of random melee
21:26
tbh not much we can do if there is an attack soon with vastly superior units

ja: if there's only 3 of them we may work something out
21:27
bobchillingworth: if one of them attacks us, and it looks like you or I is in serious trouble, but the other northern civ isn't do anything threatening, we might want to consider mutual military protection

[I saw this one coming... yeah, fat chance]

so if PB is running roughshod over you, I could try to divert him by razing outlying settlements

[now that's a diversion. Pb'd surely capitulate over that. Yeah, I know I'm being overly sarcastic. I just need to blow off steam]


21:28
I don't even know if PB and Selrahc are teaming up, but they're obviously working together at least for tech

ja: a brave idea, but i don't think he would be much bothered by that

bobchillingworth: military cooperation seems natural

yeah, it's better than doing nothing
21:29
If selrahc takes my land or PB takes yours (or selrahc takes yours, whatever), then the surviving party will be in an even weaker position
21:30
ja: if they manage to do that

it's not easy to take a well defended city
21:31
bobchillingworth: not unless you have snowfall or 4th tier units, anyway :P
21:32
I'm not proposing that you and I become formal allies. But we've got that NAP for like 50 more turns, and I think at least one of us is likely to get attacked before it's up

so cooperating to keep the south free from northern aggression I think is a good idea
21:33
ja: well, preemptive strikes are not a bad idea either

bobchillingworth: I do want vamps for that tho

my preferred target would actually probably be PB
21:34
I think I can do a lot of damage with raiders and spectres

Kurios are very vulnerable to both pillaging and losing settlements

defense against selrahc would be the main issue, of course. Plus the time factor, if I want to pair vamps with something awesome like ritualists
21:35
ja: i agree about pillaging. not sure about losing settlements

bobchillingworth: settlements can't get much cultural defense, right?

even if he tries to defend them...
21:36
ja: but doesn't cause much damage if you take them down

bobchillingworth: yeah true. Mostly cuts off resources

Like, I think his only source of copper is in a settlement

costs him a settler too

and possible shrine income
21:37
do you have map knowledge of PB's territory?

I know where everything is
21:38
ja: yes, two of his cities

capital and 2nd one

bobchillingworth: I have a map of all of it

I'll send a map trade when I play the turn

should hopefully be of some use

[i guess It won't reveal anything new about Pb, but i'll get to see where Selrahc placed his recent cities, and of course seeing all the Calabim land will be nice]

ja: ok

bobchillingworth: just don't let anyone know you got it from me

[cf.: Selrahc asked if he could trade a map that included my territory]

ja: yeah, i'd like to see his 4th. it's pretty close to me
21:39
bobchillingworth: yeah he settled really aggressively near you

those jungle towns are an insult

ja: i know. can't do much about it right now
21:40
bobchillingworth: have you looked at the garrisons in them? Whenever I try send a scout over it gets killed by wolf riders and other crap from that goblin super fort

ja: no i can't see it
21:41
bobchillingworth: oh okay. Maybe sareln can try basing a hawk in your land so we can find out what PB is fielding

ja: i considered that, but neither of us have cartography :/
21:42
bobchillingworth: ah.

haha okay well once you have cartography then

okay I am going to get back to some schoolwork and then play the turn
21:43
just to be clear, I'm razing the barb city right, or did you want the honor?

ja: i could raze it but in 15-20 turns

bobchillingworth: I'll take it then

okay, later! I'm sure we'll have more to coordinate soon.
21:44
ja: ok, cheers

[Iskender]

Got map of the Calabim from Bob and saw this:



That's some real f***g Fertile Crescent over there. I counted 11 flood plains tiles, enough to feed 4 cities, and that 0/3/9 riverside plains gold as the cherry on top. And all that landed in the hands of a civ whose UB basically gives +1 hammer per pop. I'm surprised that the Calabim haven't run away with the game already. (Actually, the fact that they haven't can be attributed only to excessive and continuous usage of cannabis.) And they have the entire south-eastern chunk of the continent for themselves.

I do enjoy challenges but this is not funny anymore.