[SPOILERS] Pindicator as Qin Shi of China - Boring Ol' Vanilla

[pindicator]

Try to get excited about this



Yep

[Lewwyn]

China is a good pull though.

[Ceiliazul]

are you going to win this one?

[NobleHelium]

It doesn't really make much sense to omit the Huang in his name since the Shi is an adjective for it...

[Ituralde]

To get the most important question out of the way:

What do you do, when you start next to scooter?

[Ceiliazul]

To get the most important question out of the way:

What do you do, when you start next to scooter?

Give thanks to the mapmaker that he didnt start next to Commodore!

[pindicator]

China is a good pull though.

It's solid, just like PRO and IND are solid traits. But there isn't any imagination in the combination. Maybe if I was as boringly efficient as a NobleHelium or a Seven spirits I'd be more excited ...

But me? I'd rather play this combo with the BtS version of PRO

are you going to win this one?

In the purest Charlie Sheen version of winning, yes

It doesn't really make much sense to omit the Huang in his name since the Shi is an adjective for it...

That is your best one in a long time. I laughed out loud when I read it

To get the most important question out of the way:

What do you do, when you start next to scooter?

Take out all my frustrations at how he is running Pb13 (tongue firmly in cheek)

To get the most important question out of the way:

What do you do, when you start next to scooter?

Give thanks to the mapmaker that he didnt start next to Commodore!

For what I want to do I would welcome a neighbor like Commodore

Leader and Civ analysis upcoming, later in the day probably

[pindicator]

Pregame Planning
Part 1 - Leader & Civ




For reference:

Code:

PRO: Half-Cost Granaries
Free CG promo on Archery, Gunpowder units
IND: Half-Cost Forges
+50% production on wonders

STARTING TECHS:
- Agriculture
- Mining

UU: CKN
UB: Pavillion

In base BtS, China has the distinction of being the solid civ with the best starting techs. In RB Mod there are lots of civs with solid starting techs, especially thanks to the changes done to Hunting. China is still solid, but less special in that regard. Still, China has a very unique unit in the Cho-Ko-Nu. And an awful Unique Building in the Pavillion. Can we do something for the Pavillion in RB Mod? I suppose it's good for the niche of culture battles, but man is it dull.

Side Note: This also is why I HATE, HATE, HATE the change to Numidian Mercenaries. HATE!!! Just because Krill worships at the shrine of the Horse Archer doesn't mean he has to kill what little creativity is in unique units. And Numids were actually pretty good in their BtS form, you just couldn't use them in the HA vs HA stack that Krill was imagining. Good thing that massing crossbows isn't en vogue, otherwise CKNs would have gotten the axe long ago.

In a lot of ways, PRO and IND are just like the Pavillion. It's good at what it does, but it doesn't really spark the imagination. Half-price on the best building in the game? Of course that's good. Half price forges? Historically under-rated, but a lot more appreciative lately. (Try playing a few games with IND and prioritizing forges, and then go back to other traits. You have to really start thinking about where to put those forges in rather than just being able to spam them.) Maybe I should chase wonders; that could be different, in only that the meta swings full circle.

Commodore tried really hard to get me excited by explaining how a cheaper Metal Casting means a buff to IND. Plus the change of moving Trebs to Machinery is a buff for China. Now China just needs to get Machinery and suddenly it's running around with CKN/Treb/Spear armies. But this could really be fool's gold. I mean, it's a terrible idea on so many levels:

* Metal Casting is not on the path to Currency. So you better do something amazing with it to justify delaying Currency.
* Horse Archers are just as easy to obtain and arguably better attackers than CKNs.
* I was recently able to read a wonderful article that Commodore wrote in PB13 about how folly it is to fight protracted land wars against a competent opponent. Immediately I remembered back to PB7 where I was bogged down after my initial CKN advances. Very glad I read it and I agree with it ... mostly
* If you want to bulb Machinery with a Scientist, you need to tech Alphabet, Aesthetics, Mathematics, Iron Working, and Masonry, and you have to avoid Fishing, Construction, any Philosophy pre-reqs, and any Paper pre-reqs.
* If you want to bulb Machinery with an Engineer, it's going to take 34 turns of running 1 specialist before you get to see the payoff.


Let's look at that last one a little closer. I know the change to Metal Casting was made for IND's benefit, but I haven't heard anybody say just how big a buff to PHI it is. It should be pretty trivial to get Metal Casting before t50 now (I've gotten it around there on all my games with Qin Shi of China so far.) As IND, building the forge is trivial. It's a two-pop whip, or chop a couple trees. Then we then hire the Engineer and sit and wait. And wait. And wait. For 34 turns we wait and then finally we have our first great person. So we're looking at our GE sometime in the t85-90 range, depending on how quick it takes the forge to be built.

But if we were PHI. Instead of 3gpp/t for that lone engineer we'd be making 7. And instead of 34 turns to generate a GP it would only take 15. So unless IND is going to let us build that forge 20 turns faster than PHI, then IND really isn't the trait you want for bulbing. So if PHI should have no trouble getting a GE out by turn 70, and probably closer to t65 if they really micro the forge chop & whip well. If we have a PHI leader who aims to get Mids this way, I'm not sure there's even a competition with the rest of us.

So after thinking about all this yesterday, I was ready to throw in the towel on Qin Shi Huang of China: Bulbing Machinery CKNs is a bad strategy for warmaking, fighting protracted land wars is a bad way to fight a war, IND isn't even the best trait for bulbing to Machinery, and I've already played this game before. And what does that leave? It leaves playing solidly, focusing on granaries and forges in new cities, on waiting for an opportunity from an opponent and then expanding into it.

It leaves me waiting to attack with knights or horse archers so I can follow the tried and true method of using increased mobility to strike quickly.

Or does it?

To Be Continued...

[NobleHelium]

It doesn't really make much sense to omit the Huang in his name since the Shi is an adjective for it...

That is your best one in a long time. I laughed out loud when I read it

Well, I suppose that would fit on my tombstone.

NobleHelium, Only Accidentally Funny

[pindicator]

Pregame Planning
Part 2




What is fun for you? What keeps you engaged? I like to think that something of the Realms Beyond spirit still resonates with me, and I'm talking about the credo that was often repeated when the focus was more on single-player events and reporting on Epics and Adventures. To play the hand that your dealt and do so honorably. I don't always hold up to such a standard, but I still like to try.

I think people aren't quite clear as to why I stepped down in PB13. And as much as I can say in that the game is going on, is that I on occasionally enjoyed my time in PB13. Being in a strong position, being able to win a game with some of the stronger names on the site -- that did not matter to me as the things which made me unhappy. On the surface it can be seen as funny: I had more fun with PB8, a game where we never had a chance of winning, but in PB13 where I was on a team that was leading from start to end, it was the opposite experience.

So I am keeping China and Qin Shi. Hence the Sun Tzu quote This will not be the same game I played with Lincoln of China in PB7. For one, we're dealing with RB Mod as opposed to Beyond the Sword. Two, we have stronger leader traits overall. Third, I like to think I've improved in two years and can improve on some of the mistakes I made in PB7.

We're still going to bulb Machinery for Cho Ko Nus. It just won't be as easy as if we were PHI, but the fun is in the challenge.

Bulb Plan


Image taken from my PB7 game

1. Worker Techs. Pottery gets extra emphasis both because we will want to get an earlier commerce base, and because half-priced granaries need to go in our cities. Never tech Fishing or any pre-reqs for Philosophy or Paper. If I am at a coastal start then I need a new plan.
2. Writing. Again, make sure we get a fast library in the capital. Commerce matters
3. Math -> Currency. We're not going to sabotage our economy in the name of fast CKNs. And the extra time is going to be used for expanding and building up a production base
4. Metal Casting. Build a forge quickly in a high food city and start an engineer spec. Build a library within 10 turns (8 is ideal) and then hire 2 scientist specs.
5. Try to get the following within 17 turns: Iron Working, Alphabet, Aesthetics, & Masonry

At this point we are 16 turns after we first hired the engineer specialist. If we built the Library in 8 turns and hired 2 scientists immediately, we will find ourself sitting at 96/100 GP Points with a 50% chance of an Engineer and a 50% chance of a Scientist. Taking longer with the lib will cost us time, but will give us more odds on an engineer. If we get an engineer, then the only question is if it's worthwhile to rush a highly desireable wonder and change plans. Oherwise machinery is the top bulb requirement. If we get a scientist then we can't bulb Machinery until a number of other technologies have finished. But we can't produce a great person in any reasonable amount of time without hiring those units.

Ideally we're sitting around turn 85 and now have the ability to build CKNs and Trebs. Yes, that's about the same speed as if we went Metal Casting right after Writing and ran a single engineer, but I think the quicker Currency and Math is worth it.

So the next part we have to figure out is how we're going to go to war with a slow-moving army and what we're going to do to get around the problems with giving your opponent a lot of time to prepare and react.