I'm really looking forward to playing some early game Civ again. 
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Thread of Lost Tales: Bismarck of Japan
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September 18th, 2015, 09:08
(This post was last modified: October 7th, 2015, 06:21 by The Black Sword.)
Awesome! I always wanted to be in an Ichabod thread.
 I'm hoping to take Qin Shi Huang(Ind/Pro). The two traits I haven't used yet, and mildly synergetic too. I'm slightly worried about a slow early game, it'll be interesting to see how much value Pro can give there. Hopefully no one steals this combo or I'll have a hard choice between Ind and Pro. For civ I'll probably choose based on the starting techs after seeing the start.
Okay, Teebs, I've been meaning to ask: Why Tides of War? What about this mod do you prefer?
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.
I write RPG adventures, and blog about it, check it out.
Well, I guess I'll preface this by saying that I like both ToW and RtR as mods that fix the worst imbalances and I was happy to play either of them. I do prefer ToW though.
The biggest problem I have with RtR over ToW is that it gives no consideration to keeping the mod close to the base game. Krill can correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that he will make any change to increase strategic choice regardless of how big or small a change this is from base BTS. ToW is closer to the philosophy I'd like that only makes changes that are really important/obvious. This makes the mod easier for me to play with consulting a massive changelog half the time and makes the mod a lot more welcoming for new players. I think most of my problems with RtR are because of this. Two examples; the palace change to 9c, one of a bunch of minor changes with little effect, and the massive civic overhaul, even moving stuff around on the tech tree, which has little resemblance to BTS. And the later versions of RtR have been making these issues worse IMO. On the changes that are directly comparable between the two mods, I really like the ToW traits and starting tech systems. The balance between the starting techs is really elegantly done IMO, you can envision different situations where you'd prefer each one of the starting techs and that goes a long way to making the different civs viable without a bunch of other changes. As for the traits, I can understand your objections to the lack of promos and warlike traits, but that doesn't really bother me. I almost wish Seven had put the promos in just so that issue wouldn't come up, but they don't really fit with the current set. Anyway, I find ToW's Agr and Pro a lot more interesting than the comparable Exp and Agg in RtR. I wouldn't claim either mod has the traits fully balanced yet but Agr and Pro are new and strong effects that will change how you have to play. Exp is mostly a collection of cheap buildings, which I find boring, and Agg is a weak copy of Org with extra promos. You might wonder why I like Agr and Pro for their new effects but criticize RtR for big changes from BTS. Well Agr and Pro are replacing two traits that are pretty much non-existent anyway and absolutely need changing to balance the different leaders. In contrast, I think you could easily leave Merc, for example, at banking with a very similar effect to the base game and still have it be a viable civic. It didn't need the massive overhaul RtR gave it IMO. On a final point, I think there are a bunch of good changes in RtR, that are neither better nor worse than the ToW implementation, just a different design decision. Stuff like the slavery and workshop changes. I'd be a lot more interested in playing a game with those changes without all the extra baggage that comes with it though. If anybody has any other arguments to add, for or against either mod, I'd be pretty interested to read them.
Well, you don't have to convince me about the new crap Krill's been piling in; PB27 is the first and last time I'm playing SMEGmod. My feelings about ToW are known, naturally.
I'd actually love to see how minimalist a mod could be done. You'd start with what we've made standard bans: Quote:FinancialAnything I'm missing?
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.
I write RPG adventures, and blog about it, check it out. (September 22nd, 2015, 09:30)ipecac Wrote: GLH.That's kind of a hard one, actually; the GLH can be situationally Beastmode, but at other times kind of meh. There are tons of things like that, actually, but a truly minimalist mod would strive to keep those...minimal. I guess the GLH with just +1 TR has been pretty robust, though.
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.
I write RPG adventures, and blog about it, check it out. (September 22nd, 2015, 06:43)The Black Sword Wrote: The biggest problem I have with RtR over ToW is that it gives no consideration to keeping the mod close to the base game. Krill can correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that he will make any change to increase strategic choice regardless of how big or small a change this is from base BTS. ToW is closer to the philosophy I'd like that only makes changes that are really important/obvious. This makes the mod easier for me to play with consulting a massive changelog half the time and makes the mod a lot more welcoming for new players. I think most of my problems with RtR are because of this. Two examples; the palace change to 9c, one of a bunch of minor changes with little effect, and the massive civic overhaul, even moving stuff around on the tech tree, which has little resemblance to BTS. And the later versions of RtR have been making these issues worse IMO. I think the only two comments needed is I wouldn't make any change that improved choice, there must be a line somewhere I wouldn't cross...I hope, anyway, and that Stuff can always change, like that 9 Commerce palace change is probably going to be reverted. It was only introduced because of work boat costs fitting in with not having slavery. But that's a minor quibble really, not going to change your point at all.
What I don't like about ToW is Genghis Khan as a farmer...
 That being said, I'm a SevenSpirits fanboy and I think his changes are all very refined and sophisticated (can't really express what I want in english, the words doesn't have the same meaning). I really like them and I hope Seven one day becomes the developer of the new Civ game! (not kidding) Why don't you wait for a base BTS game to pick PRO, TBS? 
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