2v2v2v2 team pitboss anyone?

[SevenSpirits]

Settings vote. Please each team vote once.

Based on what I've read so far I think AW will be on. Please vote for other options as if it is. If we end up voting no AW, we can redo other votes that depended on it.

I'm also assuming based on what people have said that we are going with some sort of snake pick for leader/civ assignment, and not just letting each team choose freely and allowing duplicates. Again, vote for other options as though this will be the case, and if we decide otherwise, we will redo those votes.

Locked-in settings:
Sequential team turns pitboss, ancient start, no vassal states, no goody huts, no random events, no tech trading, no communication with other teams. Trades with other teams allowed IF we don't choose always war.

GENERAL SETTINGS
Always War (Yes/No)?
Handicap level (Deity/Immortal/Other)?
Game Speed (Quick/Normal)?
Banned Wonders (Specify if any)?
Banned Other (1st post suggested War Elephants, Spy missions, and Nukes only)?
Barbarians (Off/On/Raging)?

MAP INSTRUCTIONS
Approx. Map Type (Lakes/Other)?
Circumnavigation available* (Yes/No)?
Map wrap (None/Cylinder/Toroid/Up to Plako)?
Natural vs Only good land?
Mirrored (Completely/With minor differences/Capitals only/No)?
If not mirrored, Fair vs Random**?

TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER
City gifting (None/First turn only/Other)?
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't (no/not if includes resources or gpt/not if includes gpt/yes)***?
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) (yes/no)****?
Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)?

LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game (yes/no)?
See starts before pick (yes/no)?
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait (yes/no)?
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order (yes/no)?
Snake pick order (4321123443211234, 4321123443214321, 4321432143214321, other)?
Bans (any or all of: India, Inca, Pacal, Willem, other)?

PITBOSS STUFF
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes?
Time limit?
New random seed on reload, right?


Let me know if I forgot anything we need to discuss. This has been a much harder list to come up with than usual so I wouldn't be surprised if I did. Btw, let me mention 2 things we often ban but I didn't include in my list of suggested bans.
1) Blockades. Every game I've played in so far, blockades were a fun part of the game, or would have been if they'd been allowed. Naval stuff is already not important as you can tell by people completely ignoring naval techs as long as possible. With blockades allowed at least it's a bit more important. IMO people really overreact to not being able to work coast tiles when an enemy fleet has control of the waters near their city. There is one situation where I would ban blockades, and that is in a simultaneous turns PB game (which this is not!). Problem there is the usual turn split issue, making it so that if first person in turn order gets blockaded by second, they can't reassign their tiles, which is really unfair.
2) Corporations. Well, I like there to be at least a bit of competition for state property. And corporations don't even get used in the majority of games where they are enabled, so I am quite unconvinced they are overpowered. (Yes, it's because they come late in the game and are a big investment then... that's the point!) However, I do feel obligated to mention that in a team game, one player can gift extra corp fuel to the other, which would help one team member have really powerful corp benefits.


* Question assumes water level will be approx 33%, otherwise this is not easily controlled.

** Fair means intended to be balanced without being mirrored. Random means as if generated by a script. This is a continuum. Question is moot to the extent that the map is mirrored.

***If I've ended turn and offer my partner gpt and he accepts, he gets the gpt that turn and I don't lose it. So that's generating money out of thin air and clearly overpowered. Note that the trade can be undone the next turn by offering back an equal GPT trade in the other direction, so you aren't even locked into 10t of anything. Similarly you can get a free happy (or other benefit of a resource) by trading away a happy resource after ending turn so both players get the benefit on the same turn. But this is a much smaller issue because you are locked into 10t after the trade.

****Another way of stopping the GPT abuse mentioned just above is to ban GPT. GPT gifts can also be abused by letting one partner strike for a few turns (which carries next to no penalty) while the other one gets money from them. On the other hand, forcing people to gift lump sums of gold every turn if they want an arrangement like that is a bit silly. My preference is to disallow trading gpt/resources when one partner has ended turn and the other hasn't, and also to ban abuse of strike mechanics, but to allow normal gpt trades.

[NobleHelium]

Another possible pick scheme: 4321 3214 2143 1432

[Krill]

Suggestion: Decide on AW or not first, then decide on map type. Let Plako make the map as he sees fit (he doesn't disappoint) then he can tell the general settings so you can decide on the difficulty level. That should give the players good control over the expected tech rate but also give Plako an easier time balancing the map/making it fun for you.

[HitAnyKey]

****Another way of stopping the GPT abuse mentioned just above is to ban GPT. GPT gifts can also be abused by letting one partner strike for a few turns (which carries next to no penalty) while the other one gets money from them. On the other hand, forcing people to gift lump sums of gold every turn if they want an arrangement like that is a bit silly. My preference is to disallow trading gpt/resources when one partner has ended turn and the other hasn't, and also to ban abuse of strike mechanics, but to allow normal gpt trades.

Can someone explain this strike thing? I've never heard of that before in this game, so I don't even know what it is. Is it something that only can happen in teams game? That may be why I've never heard of it, since I can't remember the last time I played a team game.

[SevenSpirits]

Suggestion: Decide on AW or not first, then decide on map type. Let Plako make the map as he sees fit (he doesn't disappoint) then he can tell the general settings so you can decide on the difficulty level. That should give the players good control over the expected tech rate but also give Plako an easier time balancing the map/making it fun for you.

I don't really understand the point of deciding on difficulty level after the map is made. Wouldn't we want plako to have that knowledge too?

[SevenSpirits]

Can someone explain this strike thing? I've never heard of that before in this game, so I don't even know what it is. Is it something that only can happen in teams game? That may be why I've never heard of it, since I can't remember the last time I played a team game.

More info here: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid200531 (Note that over there I am assuming a standard sequential turns PBEM, where EVERY trade offer gets accepted after the offerer has ended turn.)

The reason I bring it up explicitly in this game is that we are MUCH more likely to incidentally find ourselves in situations where this comes up. In a normal game you have to really try in order to benefit from the abusable GPT mechanics, but in a team game it's natural to have running GPT deals between you and your partner. Because it's so close to natural play, I think it's not sufficient to just say "don't abuse the mechanics" - we need to define a clear line because we may be playing very close to it.

[Krill]

I don't really understand the point of deciding on difficulty level after the map is made. Wouldn't we want plako to have that knowledge too?

Toroidal v. Flat obviously affects difficulty choice (and vice versa I suppose). Don't choose them at the same time, is what I mean.

[SevenSpirits]

I don't really understand the point of deciding on difficulty level after the map is made. Wouldn't we want plako to have that knowledge too?

Toroidal v. Flat obviously affects difficulty choice (and vice versa I suppose). Don't choose them at the same time, is what I mean.

Good point.

Personally I plan to vote for "Deity if Cylindrical, Immortal if Toroidal".

[Krill]

Suggestion: Decide on AW or not first, then decide on map type. Let Plako make the map as he sees fit (he doesn't disappoint) then he can tell the general settings so you can decide on the difficulty level. That should give the players good control over the expected tech rate but also give Plako an easier time balancing the map/making it fun for you.

I don't really understand the point of deciding on difficulty level after the map is made. Wouldn't we want plako to have that knowledge too?

Toroidal v. Flat obviously affects difficulty choice (and vice versa I suppose). Don't choose them at the same time, is what I mean.

Good point.

Personally I plan to vote for "Deity if Cylindrical, Immortal if Toroidal".

Last night was busy, I was stuck acting as host to a party of 40+ drunken family members and close friends of the family, so I was too knackered to explain the point fully for other people.

If you decide on AW or not first, that means Plako knows what he needs to do with happy and health resource density, and number of unique resources, if trading will play any part or not. He can also decide the map wrapping that will lead to good gameplay, because there are so many layout variations available in a 2v2v2v2 depending on the wrapping and lakes positions. That said, I thought you were definitely doing a Lakes map, but obviously if that decision is up in the air decide on the map type at the same time as AW. Once Plako decides on the map settings that will give the best game then you decide on the difficulty.

Ultimately, choosing all of the map settings is the same as saying that you don't trust the map maker to create a fun map (or at least as much as you trust yourself to choose balanced and fun settings).

[plako]

One thing you might want to vote for are starting units. Standard, all scout/warrior or some extra security e.g. with city garrison warrior that never should leave home city + scout.