[pb40 spoiler] Götterdämmerung: Destruction Is The Masses' Entertainment

[OT4E]

About good or bad game, you know you cant win every game. And oppositely sometimes the victory comes for the ones who havent done anything decisive. Playing good is nice description for certain situation but unfortunately in this unfair game you can play good in every local situation and find yourself still losing the game.

[Coeurva]

Got the mythical 1/50 chance where all his four swords win their initial combats (1/4, 1/4, 6/10, 6/10), and I still didn't land the Schilda raze. The chariots barely matter because they get about 10% odds on archers and the spear top-defends against like three of them anyway; he should have brought more or might as well not have brought any.

Now watch us get fucked by even worse luck than that. I'll finish turn now.

e: Yeah I'm with you OT4E. I wouldn't be angry with shallow_thought, though; my anger is not with losing the game as such.

ee: Btw Schilda was not a bold or aggressive move, if that's what's been suggested. It's seven tiles from our capital. It's probably six or seven tiles from his; look at how far Golden Void is from Space Love and how absurdly aggressively RFS settled (his plant at Schilda would have been three tiles from his second-ring culture iirc). He didn't win a settler race (and still got a good deal), that doesn't translate to global thermonuclear war. If Superdeath settles Dream City in the east, that doesn't mean war against Zulu for us either even though we'd like to have it, but you can't have all the good second-ring cities around you, that's how the map is obviously designed, damn it.

Also I'm pragmatic enough to sign peace with Charriu if he wants it and just partition Mongolia with him instead, where he would incidentally also get the better deal by geography alone. Yeah. I just doubt it would happen. Sent him an offer of peace this turn nonetheless, maybe he won't feel backed into a corner.

[Coeurva]

Btw the whole "reputation" argument doesn't fly with me, because PB38 is full of newbies ignoring commonplace reputations that they know of, but I believe this discussion was sufficiently had in the aftermath of PB16 already, so let's just assume it was valid.

I find it completely reasonable how CML reacted to us stealing a worker in a lucky moment of vulnerability -- send seven axes at the asshole. That was a reaction to bold (and ill-advised) aggression.

I find Charriu somewhat reasonable until now since Schilda's garrison wasn't at its current size and "testing the waters" to see if we can reinforce is reasonable, even though planning to autoraze and replant a foodless city (he should know it's foodless, and Forza can't work the gold, and as we're about to see, you own the land you can reasonably hold, where reasonably usually means without someone throwing his game over a size1 city) is absolutely not "reacting to bold aggression" if that's how he's framing it. If he's afraid of Stonehenge, whip a library or maybe work to make Forza a holy city with the two Ancient tech religions still open because spoilers culture is less effective on second-ring tiles vis-à-vis first, but maybe Charriu doesn't even know how doHolyCity() works and clearly that's my due diligence. Alright. He could also try offering the Open Borders we "coincidentally" have unlocked so he can sentry our city if the alpha strike is what he's afraid of.

I find Charriu entirely stupid if he proceeds with the attack now despite having terrible odds and knowing it will autoraze (he does know that, right) so he doesn't even gain shit, because if the aim is to prevent an attack from us, boy howdy did he manage to move from least to most favourite neighbour to attack; and I think I'd be well within my right to hate someone who would exploit the element of luck in a strategy game in lieu of all others, because that's the only element of it he can apparently grasp. "lol sword rush". Yeah, fair enough, but he could at least have mustered a force that isn't a borderline insult. His capital is size6 like everyone else's, he didn't even whip it down for extra units. I guarantee I'd be attacking Forza with eight praets on this turn if I was considering him aggressive in denying us our reasonable gold city because we don't have double wetcorn or lighthouseable FIN lake + 2 5f cities anywhere.

And now I'll be silent because I'm not equipped with a clear head right now and I will have nothing good to say about Charriu for the rest of the game, so I'll just say nothing. You'll have noticed. I'm sure the reverse is true as well (nobody confirm or deny this, of course).

[Krill]

You want to refocus on something else?

What is the tech plan for after Currency?

[Coeurva]

The above posts are awful in some respects. I'll let them stand as written, though. (EDIT: Especially that Krill post that's just bottom tier!!)

To his credit, Charriu is evidently hesitating to attack now; he logged in and right out again, and even if only to ask Zalson for advice on attack order, at least he's not taking this for granted (anymore).

Considering the situation, not the path towards it, I do consider it good play on his part to force the mutual revelation of stacks (could have been done without wardec, though, since if we hadn't been able to make one, 1t delay doesn't mean much). Technically we both know that we could jointly attack Mongolia "with about triple their soldiers rating" (though soldier points are not that reliable: part of Charriu's confidence must have come from archers counting for only 3000 to his spears/axes at 6000 each), and we'd have enforced peace so betrayal isn't an issue for a while, which would be unusual for a dogpile... That would be beautiful AI diplo -- a coordinated attack for mutual profit with no words exchanged! -- and what a turnaround! -- but I'm pipe-dreaming.

[Coeurva]

Tech plans: After Currency, finish Sailing, then Iron Working. Regardless of war status, whip our capped cities for praets which go into the "fortress rectangle" in the south (Munsal is a honorary member, it's really a triangle, where all three cities are 1t-reinforceable from the same spot... which is to say they're very forkable, but not by 5 chariots against which we will have 3 spears minimum next turn... didn't I want to refocus).

Then regrow (now with whales hooked), Maths, MC while mining it up (2-chop + 1-whip forges at core cities, except Canoel which can just 5t + whip the forge), Calendar, CoL, Construction, hopefully outgrow s_t's anticipated Hanging Gardens with happiness and better economy. CoL probably not that good ROI from courthouses compared to EXP markets, but will have to see; map is food-poor and cramped making Caste less useful (artist culture probably amounts to peanuts by that time) and all we want is GMerchants anyway, Artist ideally won't be needed since our conquest will be with praets.

I'm not sure where Construction fits in yet... it depends on how soon we decide it's time to praet. Trebuchets are too vulnerable in the open, praets + cats already break cities quite fine I'd think, but we might not even need the cats.

[WilliamLP]

Well, fwiw I'd try to attack you in that situation, and think it was based on a rational logic over multiple iterated games, though you might call me a noob still. (Probably rightfully haha.)

Two more things I'm not sure are in your analysis:

1. Being a neighbour, the value of denying additional culture in every border city for the rest of the game.
2. You being the clear leader, if another player's goal is winning, positive sum logic is out the window. Someone has to knock the leader down a peg or it is game-over.

Also I wonder about being critical of noob play in an explicit greens game in the first place!

[Coeurva]

Trying to attack us in this situation is understandable, emphasis on trying. He should know it's not possible from here. Charriu improves his position more by attacking Mongolia than ours, so it's a win for him.

To address your points:

(1) He will probably not have more than 1 additional border city with us, especially if he doesn't attack Mongolia. The land is pretty much filled already. +1 culture is of no cultural pressure value under most circumstances, it just speeds up the second ring. Besides, he was obviously planning the attack before Stonehenge, which just finished 2t ago; he moved the slow parts of the stack into Forza the very next turn. Stonehenge might have added to his incentive, but it didn't spark it. Charriu is just mad that unlike in SP, he can't have everything, which is very different from how we handled RFS' much more aggressive settlement btw. Everyone goes through that phase, that's fine. I'm pretty sure he could in fact have finished Stonehenge in Forza if he had wanted, because lol T85 Henge.

(2) We are not the clear leader. shallow_thought has more Crop Yield (I whipped off like 6 food for Charriu so whatever, he'd still be very competitive and has three more cities to grow each turn, and was ahead some time before), slightly less MFG and GNP but his Hanging Gardens or Currency research, if played well, can catch up with this easily, or he just turns his extra 3 cities into an extra 3 units per whip cycle; the whip doesn't factor into demos at all. Even Magic Science has been catching up well economically instead of going to Iron Working due to Zulu or anything, and is now the clear #3 with 9 cities and ~80 CY, where Charriu could just as well be if he hadn't thrown.

Still, let's assume that we are in fact the clear leader right now. What do you think the best-case for Charriu is here? He autorazes Schilda, taking insane losses, we also take insane losses, and all our neighbours swoop in with intact armies taking everything, so he gains nothing while someone else becomes the game leader. How does that help him win? It just helps shallow_thought win instead. In fact, it worsens his position vis-à-vis everyone! Compare attacking Mongolia -- if he wins, two new and strong cities for him, an alright one for us, a good one for shallow_thought.

So why is it my fault that I can apparently play this game better than Charriu, but not shallow_thought's that he can also do it? Persia even borders on Charriu and is very likely just as much of a threat to his survival. Obviously don't answer this, there might well be a reason, but I'm sure shallow_thought is just delighted at Charriu attacking us.

Edit: Why shouldn't I criticize "noob play"? I can't guarantee, but imagine that Charriu has been very excited in his thread, about how he'll soon take the indefensible Schilda in a surprise attack I totally won't see coming. Would he still attack Schilda like this if the player name said "OT4E"? Because if not -- he's considering my own play noobish (overreaching), and however he words it is not of importance. Just how he acts. superdeath also seems to have banked on "noob play" btw, considering his impi rush, but turns out Magic Science pulled ahead of him even with his useless aggression in the beginning. (Keep in mind that's just what I find apparent from the game, the truth might of course be different but I can't know yet.) Everyone in this game joined it hoping to outsmart their opponents on an even field of experience (but not talent/skill/etc.), pretending otherwise is dishonest and wouldn't be playing to win.

[Coeurva]

Pictured: certainly not an army that could attack the Mongols.

We'll kill one of his chariots with the spear and he effectively only has two left (two are injured at 1.3 and 1.6str respectively) then, which is a favourable unit exchange, but who cares, I'm far too angry to play any further now. Forza added two swords, but that's not what I care about here. Someone tell me why I should have the least respect for Charriu ever again.

superdeath sent us OB + copper/copper. I declined OB because I'm not in the mood to let him see this spiteful idiocy, but shot c/c back. Whether this induces him to attack us or Charriu is beyond my care, both would be very welcome.

[OT4E]

Did you lose both axes attacking chars?