Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[Krill]

What I meant is that, armed with a list of names appropriate for each polling station, you bus say 20 people around, and they present themselves as local voters at each station. There will be no double votes, but if the actual voters turn up, they will see that their vote has already been cast.

But there's only one voting card per voter, and you need to present that when you vote. When you register to vote you use your NI (National Insurance, like a SIN) number, and give your address. In order to have an NI number, or change your address on the electoral roll, you need to present proof of address (like a bill). In fact, it might be that the gov't uses the address already associated with your NI number when you register, but I can't remember exactly. In any case, you get your voter card in the mail, and present that at the polling station.

But the main thing preventing people from busing around and pretending to be local voters is the voting card thing. Even if you fake them, it'll be really easy to spot the fraud when the genuine locals turn up with their cards and try and vote, and I imagine they do random testing to look for fake cards.

In the UK? You don't have to present the card.

[Huinesoron]

In the UK? You don't have to present the card.

Yeah, that. Nor do you have to have photo ID; you just have to know your name and street.

Apparently (I looked this up) if you show up and claim to be someone who's already voted, they will give you a special ballot which is put in a separate box, and which will only be counted after they've investigated if you're actually you. I'm not sure how this helps when the fake votes first, but hey, less than 500 reported cases over 51 million votes says it must work pretty well.

A lot of the time in the UK - not around voting, just in general - official letters (from the Council or, sometimes, electricity/water bills) are accepted as forms of ID. I suppose the principle is that if you're dedicated enough to break into someone's house and steal their council tax bill, you deserve to use their name?   Seems like it would work as a good midpoint between 'if you can read a name upside-down you're in' and 'please present six forms of photo ID and a signed note from the Queen'.

[Bacchus]

It's not that the system works well in the UK, it's that the society works extraordinarily well, so that that the system doesn't really matter. Once you get someone like Lutfur Rahman on the scene, it all becomes a little different. I have no doubt that at least large cities in the UK will move to a photo ID standard over a period of 10-15 years, if not sooner.

[Huinesoron]

It's not that the system works well in the UK, it's that the society works extraordinarily well, so that that the system doesn't really matter. Once you get someone like Lutfur Rahman on the scene, it all becomes a little different. I have no doubt that at least large cities in the UK will move to a photo ID standard over a period of 10-15 years, if not sooner.

(Emphasis added) I've just had to look up Rahman, and that's horrifying. (He fraudulently got himself elected major of Tower Hamlets, by intimidation and outright fraud.) On the other hand, it was caught, and his win brought into question very quickly. So that's good?

I don't think it's likely that only parts of the UK each constituent country will move over to photo ID; more likely the whole of England will make the shift together, if it happens. Will it? I don't know. I think a 'photo ID, council tax bill, or polling card' approach might be more likely, but I honestly have no idea.

On a lighter note: the court found that Rahman had exerted 'undue spiritual influence' on his constituents, which is an amazing thing to be found guilty of. It also let the judge say this: "It may sound pompous to cite the old Latin tag fiat Justitia ruat caelum (let justice be done, though the heavens fall) but a court that works on any other principle and does so for fear of the consequences is betraying the trust that the public reposes in it."

Yeah. I'm gonna file that alongside Tamburlaine for 'best heaven-related quotes':

Come, let us march against the powers of heaven,

And set black streamers in the firmament,
To signify the slaughter of the gods.

[TheHumanHydra]

But this is why we have photo ID deriving from official government documents

That's exactly the subject of discussion, neither in the UK, nor, until recently, in the US, did you have to present any form of ID at all.  The alleged disenfranchisement is the requirement to present a piece of photo ID (driver's license, id card, passport, etc)

Aaaah, my apologies. Should have gone to the UK website first, I guess. Well, the photo ID doesn't seem to add any time to the process here. I remember having some problems with photo ID at university without a driver's license, but since the province started issuing our health cards with a photograph it's not been an issue.

[Mr. Cairo]

What I meant is that, armed with a list of names appropriate for each polling station, you bus say 20 people around, and they present themselves as local voters at each station. There will be no double votes, but if the actual voters turn up, they will see that their vote has already been cast.

But there's only one voting card per voter, and you need to present that when you vote. When you register to vote you use your NI (National Insurance, like a SIN) number, and give your address. In order to have an NI number, or change your address on the electoral roll, you need to present proof of address (like a bill). In fact, it might be that the gov't uses the address already associated with your NI number when you register, but I can't remember exactly. In any case, you get your voter card in the mail, and present that at the polling station.

But the main thing preventing people from busing around and pretending to be local voters is the voting card thing. Even if you fake them, it'll be really easy to spot the fraud when the genuine locals turn up with their cards and try and vote, and I imagine they do random testing to look for fake cards.

In the UK? You don't have to present the card.

Do you not? I last voted in the UK during the referendum, so it was about a year ago, and I've voted in Canada since then so I may have been confused.

I'll take your word for it. Sorry for the wrong info, I'll edit my post now.

[rho21]

Democracy is, like, America's thing

The Greeks on the forum are going to be angry with you.

There's a theory (not the scientific sort) that every culture has something it really loves but is awful at.

For the US, that's democracy. The world looks on and boggles at how the arsenal of democracy can spend well over a year and billions of dollars building up to one big electiongasm and yet leave almost nobody satisfied with the result.

For the UK, it's sport. We love sport. We invented most of the major world sports and a fair proportion of the minor ones, and we want desperately to be best at them. Unfortunately, our sports teams (in particular) tend to underperform on the world stage, especially compared to the hype we put behind them. Other countries love sport too, it's true, but they aren't generally so bad at it.

[Huinesoron]

...We love sport. We invented most of the major world sports and a fair proportion of the minor ones, and we want desperately to be best at them. Unfortunately, our sports teams (in particular) tend to underperform on the world stage, especially compared to the hype we put behind them. Other countries love sport too, it's true, but they aren't generally so bad at it.

I want to set this to music and make it the new National Anthem. ^_^

[Rowain]

In the UK? You don't have to present the card.

Do I read that right? So if you know your neighbour is on a holiydays somewhere/ won't vote anyway you can go and claim to be him and vote for him?

[Krill]

Only if the presiding officer is blind.