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WarriorKnight · July 1st, 2011, 01:45

Alright Mist, it's all you from now on. Just a couple of quick things that I was planning in the next few turns (although you can change any of it if you think of something better):

You still have a choice of whether to go for Heisenburg or Thoth (my army is stationed roughly halfway between the two), however given the result of the diplo with nyktorion I think going for Heisenburg is still probably the right thing to do since we're probably not going to be friends with anyone else for much longer. Just don't try and attack both at once since we don't have the numbers to succeed against the two of them after Sanctuary wears off. (Also try not to Bless Corlindale or else he'll die to anyone who gets an Assassin)

I'm working on a metamagic node for Dispel for Corlindale and one of the two 'mage potential' adepts (the other should get Regeneration). The Nature node can be dispelled once Mardoc borrows it (I owe Mardoc his choice of either a Nature or Life node, although nyktorion is currently borrowing Nature). nyktorion also owes us a Air mana loan, although if he takes too long then you might want to build a node of our own. The Sun mana near Cahir can probably be dispelled since it's only needed for ToD. Might want to get a few Rust casters too. I don't think we need any other specific nodes at this time, but that's ok since our Dispel units will probably be busy.

As for the economy, I cash rushed the Infernal Palace this turn. Next thing is to probably upgrade the 3 adepts that are mage candidates then head to Engineering. I'm not sure what to research after that, Religious Law, Righteousness, Military Strategy and Strength of Will are all possibilities. I just got a GS in Cahir, best thing for him to do is probably a GA. Ballinasloe will pop another GP out shortly, might want to spam as many specialists as you can there from next turn. My workers are mostly out of things to do, keep a few as combat workers but maybe they could Windmill a few tiles once Engineering comes in.

Can't think of anything else right now, so I'll leave it at that.

Quote:I have no idea whose unit it was, but wouldn't the discord it has sowed between you and a possible war ally against Thoth be worth the hammer cost of a privateer?

Heisenburg's power rating suggests that his army is non-existent. Given that and how late he is scheduled to arrive to the party against Thoth (another 14 turns from now, although that's partially my fault due to Sanctuary) his value as a war ally is minimal. I can't blame him for not building an army given his position, but think of it from my side. Who would I gain the most from by attacking, the guy that has Tier IV units already and the largest army (March of the Trees aside), or the guy in last place, behind in tech with practically no army? (Mardoc is also arriving late and has no army right now, but that's another problem. Thoth did a great job staggering his NAP's with the world).

It's true that our NAP is supposed to expire on T170, but since Heisenburg broke it with the Caravel accident (No-one has manage to prove to me that Heisenburg is innocent) invading him right now is an option.

Mist · July 2nd, 2011, 01:30

Let's have a look then

[SIZE="4"]Start of turn - [/SIZE]

Got an event - dungeon for 42 gold. Tile is inside our borders, so I paid. It's north of Innishbofin.

Set slider to 100% research. +632bpt. Engineering in 3t.

Great Sage born out of Cahir Abbey

Can
: bulb Arcane Lore for 1.3k beakers
: build academy in Glenns for extra 35bpt at 100% research
: fire a Golden Age

Since this is critical point in the game golden age will give much better payout than Academy. Fired GA.

+791bpt.

Promoted Valin with Mobility and sent to pop the dungeon.

[SIZE="4"]Draft[/SIZE]

Drafted Niveus.
Drafted Cahir Abbey.
Drafted Innishbofin.

Started on Metamagic node where indicated.

[SIZE="4"]Building[/SIZE]

Archery Range in Dis
Worker in Niveus
Bazaar of Mammon in Glens ( if we get it - wonderful, if not fail gold will be useful regardless )
Gambling House in Spilan
Gambling House in Cahir
Devout in Innishbofin
Monk in Slane
Monk in Warrenpoint
Reliquary in Ballinasloe
Gambling House in Cafes
Lighthouse in Aehpetr.

Our next Great Prophet is 6t away.

[SIZE="1"]Can research Tech list for reference[/SIZE]

Nyk

Mardoc

Thoth

[/spoiler]

We'll go to war once Engineering hits. That +1 Movement will help sort things out faster.

Selrahc · July 2nd, 2011, 02:17

Bazaar of Mammon is a national wonder. It does sound an awful lot like it should be a world wonder though.

Mist · July 3rd, 2011, 08:28

Selrahc Wrote:Bazaar of Mammon is a national wonder. It does sound an awful lot like it should be a world wonder though.

National Wonder? Wow. Yeah, there's a lot of worse World Wonders than this one.

Anyhow,

[SIZE="4"]Turn 163[/SIZE]

Log :

*Thoth went Empy. Hmph.
*Nyks privateer ( I know because there's a caravel of his on the same tile ) shown up SW of Ahepetr.

Techs :

Thoth got Mind Stapling huh

Seeing as he just got out of OO only sensible reason might be for Tower of Complacency and heavy duty draft location.

[SIZE="1"]Can research Tech list for reference[/SIZE]

Nyk

Mardoc

Thoth

[/spoiler]

Building :

*Privateer finished in Garryvoe, started Frigate.
*Monk finished in Warrenpoint, started Confessor.

Drafted :

*Slane
*Glens
*Garryvoe

Misc :

Valin popped the dungeon and got mutated. It made him Sentry 1, Blitz (!) and Fire Resistant. Not bad for a mutation.

I'm thinking on how to promote Corindale. Not sure yet - Life 3 for resurrection? Entropy 3 for Wither? Metamagic 3 for Djin ? Mind 3 for Domination ? Or up the Combat line to raise cap of Snowfall?

The game hates me and assigns Scientists to all cities that gain in pop. Shuffle some specialists / tiles around.

We really should have Granaries and Smokehouses in place everywhere by now. Makes draft much more efficient. And would rid us of health problems.

uberfish · July 3rd, 2011, 08:54

Life 3 resurrects the civ hero so er... yeah you might not want to get it on Corlindale

Krill · July 3rd, 2011, 09:01

Damnit Uberfish, I was looking forward to seeing a screenshot of that frown

Selrahc · July 3rd, 2011, 09:15

uberfish Wrote:Life 3 resurrects the civ hero so er... yeah you might not want to get it on Corlindale

It does have an utterly marginal secondary usage, turning Graveyards into 10xp champions.

Mist · July 4th, 2011, 01:50

For lurker benefit ( wink

) and to keep WK up to date. Going after Heisenberg, while in principle an idea I agree with, had one huge downside of almost certainly poisoning our relation with both Mardoc and Nyktorion. It doesn't make a shred of a difference if Thoth comes from the current round of wars victorious. It's a huge issue if he gets beaten, since we end up on a wrong end of 2 vs 1. WK spent some considerable effort trying to defuse this with little obvious effect. And I decided to have one last stab at this problem yesterday, to at least keep Mardoc from interfering in Sheaim too much. Effects? Have a look.

[SIZE="4"]!Chat dump warning![/SIZE]

Quote:me: hi Mardoc :]

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Mardoc: hello there
what's up?[/COLOR]

me: we need to chat, pbem III related

Mardoc: I'm game

me: I meant to catch either you or Nyk, in light of recent events, you're the better option

[COLOR="darkslateblue"]Mardoc: I'm a tad confused, but I'm listening
mostly confused about what Nyktorion's done to make him not worth talking to[/COLOR]

We previously identified Nyktorion as the more friendly neighbour that should be converted to our case. So why Mardoc? Nyktorion managed to loose most of his military potential over the last few turns. I don't know if it was wild optimism, lack of focus or a clever trap by Thoth, what matters is that he will not be the main force on the map anymore. I don't expect him to be utterly crushed, there's a lot of pop to whip in these forests and Thoth will not have an easy time fighting war on two distant fronts. Nevertheless he will suffer enough to become a supporting actor at most. Mardoc on the other hand can still whip/upgrade himself an army and if willing could throw a huge spanner into upcoming southern war.

So off to business we go.

Quote:me: You probably all guessed we're going to hit Heisenberg, that's something that will happen really soon and on which we're both in agreement with WK. Reasons are multiple and varied, but essentially it can be boiled down to three basic facts - 1) He is hostile to us 2) He's not in position to contribute anything of importance against Thoth 3) This is the right thing to do for us at this point in the game. This is not negotiable and we won't be pushed off this. What is still up in the air is whether we still go for Thoth straight after that or not, I'm all for it, WK is not convinced, but has given me leeway to make a decision here.

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Mardoc: wait, what? I was 100% sure you signed an NAP with Thoth
well...95% sure
I thought your plan was 'provide iron and mana support but no hostile action'[/COLOR]

We did. But since whole world and it's aunt found out about it soon after we consider confidentiality clause of said NAP broken and NAP itself void. If Thoth thinks he has right to interpret confidentiality loosely to promote his agenda, he should not be surprised we'll interpret it strictly to promote ours.

Quote:[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]I will point out - I've found Metamagic in Thoth's lands. He's beating Nyktorion. If he doesn't simply go for Domination or Conquest, he'll certainly be able to pull off Tower
while you bash your head against Heisenberg[/COLOR]

I'm painfully aware of this. Given how fast Thoth was building wonders thus far I estimate up to 20 turns max from the moment first tower goes up to completion of the final one. And that's on the optimistic side.

Therefore :

Quote:me: I know. Iron provision but no hostilities is stance WK was advocating. Where I stand looks more like - we can slice through Heisenberg with no difficulty if noone interferes, let's do that and join the war against Thoth somewhere past t170. And provide them with indirect support in the meantime ( Iron, Entropy etc.)

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Mardoc: I'm not as certain as you are that Heisenberg will go down quickly, mages are only 12K power, so he could have a lot of them
and, well, to be honest, I had to promise some support to him in exchange for the Ice mana I needed[/COLOR]

Uh-huh. Now while not entirely unexpected, this is still serious bit of news. Fortunately Mardoc is not prepared for war *now*. Heisenberg is prepared even less. Let's hammer these points home somewhat.

Quote:me: You can't hold cities with mages. And all his line troops are Dispel Undead affected. He might harass a bit, but unsupported he does not have the mfg or the units to stand up to us. Therefore the choice for you and Nyk is simple, don't support and have me against Thoth, or support and have me bogged down in the south and not fighting Malakim. Btw, I'm going in t165, so there's not a lot of time for decisions.

There's always mileage to be pulled out of good ultimatum. Especially one with short time-frame.

Quote:
Mardoc: unfortunately, the choice for me is simple too - lose PBEM3 but keep my word intact, or probably lose but also break my word. I'm in too many games to be willing to lose my reputation.

This was also good. Nice black-and-white answer with a valid if somewhat shaky argument. Fortunately life is full grayscale lol

Quote:
that said - you're bluffing here

I'm not. I am not averse to bluff, but it's not required here.

Quote:Thoth will straight up win. Even with Heisenberg's lands, you have no shot of taking him on if you don't fight with us.

I don't have to take Thoth on. We have actually pretty decent shot at tower ourselves. It would require some careful preparation and some sleight of hand, but I'm fairly sure I could make it happen before our NAP with Nyk runs out. And that would be the exit path if these negotiations failed btw.

Quote:[COLOR="darkslateblue"]you think I trust Nyktorion? I trust him to see his self-interest, and that's all.
Which is why we're currently allied[/COLOR]

Now this is getting interesting. Sometimes you can get surprisingly good results from chatting with people.

Quote:me: everyone in this game acts of self-interest at this point

Mardoc: except you

Right. It must be delusion then lol

Quote:Heisenberg needs our land to even have a shot at winning

so what? He can't hurt you?

me: Nyk needs us to fight Thoth to survive

Mardoc: I will say this much - my deal with Heisenberg is defensive only

me: We need Sheaim land to be in the game if / when Thoth falls

Mardoc: or Malakim land

me: and to have a quiet backline. Malakim land is not defensible for us.

Mardoc: well, if I can't convince you, then so be it. I suppose the related question is, what level of support to Heisenberg are you willing to tolerate? It can't be zero or I break my word

Ah. Now we're getting somewhere. Grayscale, here we go :]

Quote:me: I expect you promised some assassins to take out Corindale, that's fine

That's perfectly fine. Corindale with no strength boost ( like Bless or Stoneskin ) does not count as combat unit for the effects of Marksman. He'll not be picked up as a valid target for assassins. So Mardoc can have any number of them running around and I don't care much.

Quote:[COLOR="deepskyblue"]Scouting with hawks should not make much of an impact either, there's only so many ways you can look at the train about to hit you. I'd be grateful for no tsunamis on my coasts, rebuilding improvements is a pain. And no gold for unit upgrades, he does not have a lot of mages now. Let's keep it that way.
[/COLOR]
Mardoc: well, given the need for me to focus on Thoth uber alles, I can probably abide by his much

Can't see why not. I would.

Quote:
don't expect me to sign an NAP though, if you're breaking yours with Heisenberg like this

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]me: he broke a deal relating to Ice mana to provide you with it
and that Privateer was his
[/COLOR]
Mardoc: yeah, yeah, of course it was. Thoth has no reason whatsoever to foment discord

He had absolutely no reason to foment discord. As far as he's concerned we have had a NAP to 210 and are about to hit someone else anyhow. So yes, I fail to see what reason could he have.

Quote:I hadn't heard anything about this Ice mana deal, that might be more serious. We're talking Thoth here, declared war on the Sheaim because he saw an unprotected hero. He takes opportunities.

me: we did not contest Sheaim settling Letus on condition we get the Ice mana and he gets a mana type of his choice for the rest of the game.

I have admit this is not exactly precise. According to WK as documented way earlier in the thread there was an agreement to share Ice mana in exchange for allowing Irgy to settle Letuum. Terms were never spelled out either here or to me privately later. It should be safe to assume though that unilateral cancellation of Ice mana trade with no word of explanation or warning goes against any such deal.

Quote:
He broke that with no explanation the same turn privateer attack happened. Coincidence? :] Because I think he got your support and shown a 'fuck you' to us being backed up.

Mardoc: hmm. well, it could be. I'll admit, Heisenberg isn't nearly as straightforward as Irgy was. I'll have to read his thread after the game.

Bingo.

Quote:me: and if you think him being at war with Thoth matters - I was at war with Sciz for 30 turns after we decided to sign peace. With no blodsheed ( and there was ample time , opportunities and Malakim force ) it means shit.

Mardoc: I do see your point here. Although - I haven't been keeping close track of the east, to say the least. How the heck did he make it this far into the game without mages? He's Arcane for goodness sake.

me: that's a good question, and just so you know - he's building ritualists :]

Mardoc: Well, I think you've persuaded me there's no need to raze Ahrpetr, anyway. I'll rely on your self interest to get yourself involved against Thoth.

And this would be a point for the home team. I'll just take the opportunity to point out I'm not supposed to be acting out of self interest. And here I hoped to be delusional lol

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted wink

Quote:
me: What turn do you plan to commit?

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Mardoc: I'm not 100% sure you're not talking with Thoth, is the thing
mostly sure, but not 100%
oh, nevermind, he's got all the info he needs[/COLOR]

I'm not. He didn't write a word to us since that NAP discussion. And yes, I do expect he has all the info anyhow.

Quote:
T171. Since my NAP expires EOT T170. Currently plotting how dangerous a blow I can strike.

me: ok, you'll get Entropy, Iron and metamagic from me on t170

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Mardoc: don't need the Iron, and I wouldn't risk being in cities then anyway.
Iron Working is due in a turn or two, and I have Iron in my borders. Entropy and metamagic would be useful, yes[/COLOR]

me: Depending on how much extra units can I squeeze from my cities by then I'll commit t175 latest, so I can get and consolidate his border cities before sanctuary expires. In the meantime it would be good to keep Nyk alive somehow

Mardoc: You really think Heisenberg will fold that quickly? Yikes. If you're right, there's a chance we don't end up at war at all, I'm sure you've seen I have no assassins in his land at the moment. There's not much I can do to help Nyktorion that I'm not already doing. He has my Air mana for automatic Maelstrom mages.

me: I've got just shy of 20 monks by the time of attack, 15 Longbows, 4 Mages, Corindale, 12 Confessors (half with Dispel Undead ) some Crusaders and blitzing Valin with Gela. And any city taken and culture bombed can't be counterstriked.

I'm slightly overselling my forces here. But it's a good and plausible sales pitch. No reasons to doubt this bluff.

Quote:Mardoc: Sanctuary is very powerful, true. I haven't seen longbows used much, but they make sense once you have the iron.

me: they can be drafted. Heisenberg has no(!) mages at the moment and scariest unit I scouted is a Tar Demon

Mardoc: he went to Planar Gates before picking up Sorcery?

me: apparently

Mardoc: when he's Arcane, with very nice manas?

me: yup, so you can understand my 'useless in war with Thoth' comment

Mardoc: I mean, I look useless, but I at least have a lot of cities and Slavery and tech, so can make an army quickly

me: he doesn't even have that, and best he can whip is a Pyre Zombie :/

Mardoc: admittedly, against Thoth that would count. Wait, Malakim have Life mana too.

me: yup

Mardoc: ok, against Nyktorion that would count. Or 90 turns ago. I'm a little confused how you managed to bully him into that Ice deal in the first place, given PZ's.

me: Letum was much closer to us than to him. And he really wanted that spot due to some gold nearby. Even with zombies he would not be able to defend that city if he wanted. Especially given it was third(? or fourth ) one he settled.

Mardoc: well, I guess not. It's been an interesting game, but not the most balanced map. To be fair, we didn't ask for 'most balance'.

After this we drifted off to other topics. Only point of interest is this :

Quote:Mardoc: I'm debating that. I'm not convinced I can hold much, but I really want to. So far, though, my plan is to raze more than I keep. Which brings up a question - what's the appropriate fee for a Hallowing?

me: that's 400 hammers for -5 counter :/ Sanctify adepts are cheaper.

Mardoc: that's true. and the AC isn't really out of control, especially with Hell terrain contained

me: but if you want I'll do that for 200h equivalent of religion spreads. We could use some more temples

Mardoc: Obviously I can't spare the hammers until the Thoth situation is resolved. But I'll keep it in mind

me: neither can I really, I have maybe 2 cities that could build it in reasonable time

Mardoc: and, realistically, if it becomes necessary, I expect Nyktorion to chip in as well

me: sure, everyone benefits

Not really convinced if it's a good price, but don't have any better ideas ATM and if by not fleecing them we get some more goodwill, then why not.

And that's it. Time to go make some carnage.

Mist · July 7th, 2011, 00:29

[SIZE="4"]Turn 164[/SIZE]

Barbarians created a big monkey. Guess where.

[Image: Monkey.JPG]

It's nice to have that long grey wall in place smoke

Mardoc researched Iron Working.

[SIZE="1"]Can research Tech list for reference[/SIZE]

Nyk

Mardoc

Thoth

[/spoiler]

Did some hawk abuse to check on Heisenbergs troops

[Image: Sheaim_Army.jpg]

This is not going to hold anyone. It won't do me any good to wait though, he's slowly starting to get troops from gates. Also note the Nightwatch. Was Gibbon built yet? Or is it Mardoc's?

Research dialled down to 20%. Engineering and DoW next turn.

NobleHelium · July 7th, 2011, 17:39

What's the strength on the monkey again?

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