Guild halls

[Lurker Wyrm]

Wyrm: You want to win the argument? Fine. I edit and give you the last word. Please don't bring the alpha into debates here again. Such posts start trampling territory that can't be released for public consumption.

That wasn't my intent. As I told KoP, it's too easy for things to get out of hand, and I hadn't been to the forums again after I posted, so I was unaware of what had happened or the effect that last posting had. I guess all I can say is that I'm sorry, for whatever it's worth.

[DamadmOO]

To be honest i have no clue what the whole discussion is going about this time. Maybe i haven't been in this guild for long enough but still it looks weird to me. Trying out the guild halls is ofc a nice idea. Tho in the guid message (yeah i am one of them reading them :D) it said that i had to vote for one. Personally i don't have a favorite guild hall. On wednesday or thursday i will make a tour to all of the guild halls and see what they look like.

I will be mainly looking at the aesthetics tho. At the moment i am just not ready for playing GvG matches. The main reason is that i don't think that i have enough skills unlocked for that yet. And at my laptop i can only play the game with 3/4 fps. Which isn't nearly enough to do some quick spiking :D So yeah i am interested in playing GvG. I am just not ready for it atm. In the mean time i will keep unlocking skills (me thanks Fox for the great Zaishen Elite team build ) and you will hear more from me on this forum now i am registered :D

[Drasca]

Why do you care?

See people who were only made aware NOW after Guild message and bringing topic thread to forefront.

I don't like people being unrepresented because someone got lazy and ignorant of others. I don't appreciate your attitude of 'dont' give a damn about others either when they were never GIVEN A REASONABLE CHANCE.

I don't like the change to meditation guild hall, that's no secret, but the bigger problem is the lazy self-only elitist attitude where decisions are made that doesn't even try to reach out to those you're not immediately familiar with.

I do not appreciate guild wide decisions made by a small sect without any real effort to reach the larger guild population.

[Hawkmoon]

See people who were only made aware NOW after Guild message and bringing topic thread to forefront.

I don't like people being unrepresented because someone got lazy and ignorant of others. I don't appreciate your attitude of 'dont' give a damn about others either when they were never GIVEN A REASONABLE CHANCE.

I don't like the change to meditation guild hall, that's no secret, but the bigger problem is the lazy self-only elitist attitude where decisions are made that doesn't even try to reach out to those you're not immediately familiar with.

I do not appreciate guild wide decisions made by a small sect without any real effort to reach the larger guild population.

I don't think you interpreted my question correctly. I'm asking why you, personally, care that our guild hall is atm the Isle of Meditation. Do aesthetics matter that much to you? I am under the (possibly mistaken) impression that members don't spend much time just hanging out in the guild hall. Don't answer from the point of view of Encouraging Democracy and Stamping Out Egregious Tyranny - I'm trying to understand what provoked such a visceral reaction from you.

Re: your comment, "I don't appreciate your attitude of 'dont' give a damn about others either when they were never GIVEN A REASONABLE CHANCE." What exactly, in your mind, constitutes a "reasonable chance"? Should we spend the next 3 months hunting down all of the guild members online, keeping in mind that we're scattered across multiple time zones, and extract a vote from them? Seems to me that participation, however minimal, on this forum is a Reasonable Chance to express one's opinion. You say that posting on the forum isn't a requirement to be in the guild, but you're calling for exactly that when you demand a vote! So exactly who's being hypocritical?

For the record, I don't appreciate you flying off the handle and accusing us of having the worst possible motives in doing the guild hall change, without making any attempt, in calm, measured language, to find out what was up. Your posts, including this one, have been nothing but inflammatory. Whatever you may think, I had no intention of enraging or disenfranchising any guild member when I posted in support of trying out different guild halls in an attempt to boost our GvG performance. You insulted me and the rest of the GvGers in the guild when you so quickly leapt to the conclusion that we're "elitist." You owe us an apology.

[FoxBat]

I am under the (possibly mistaken) impression that members don't spend much time just hanging out in the guild hall.

People go there often enough, especially with all the convenient services we have stocked up. I think non-GvGer's aesthetic tastes should count for something. There are a fair number of "not stupidly difficult" halls we could choose from as opposed to *the* most complex hall we were just stuck with.

Seems to me that participation, however minimal, on this forum is a Reasonable Chance to express one's opinion.

I suppose putting something in the announcements that refers to the forum, that's all you can do there. There could have been better communication about this, but it didn't occur to me or likely others that people would have complaints about temporary hall changes.

[WarBlade]

Re: your comment, "I don't appreciate your attitude of 'dont' give a damn about others either when they were never GIVEN A REASONABLE CHANCE." What exactly, in your mind, constitutes a "reasonable chance"?

Throwing my two cents in on this one... A reasonable chance would be a thread dedicated exclusively to the subject of a guild hall change so that someone who has lost interest in a lengthy and ongoing topic (where the discussion took place instead) will be appraised of the debate after a quick scan of the Guild Wars forum index. Such a thread could have proposed a change and supplied a number of reasons for change and kicked off a much tidier discussion. The thread we have here now embarrasses me.

People go there often enough, especially with all the convenient services we have stocked up. I think non-GvGer's aesthetic tastes should count for something.

Adding to that, reasons that should be presented IMO would include (and not be limited to)
- Aesthetics: Some of us have no taste for stepping into a barren wasteland while others might like the visual horror of the Jade one. One of the considerations for the old hall was also the clear lighting which let us take the outfits screenies without worrying about the golden lighting that some of the halls bathed us in.
- GvG Matches: It would be better to have halls that suit the style of play that RB wants to use.
- NPC Service Convenience: Locations of the NPCs in relation to the spawn point is another deciding factor IMO.

[Drasca]

Do aesthetics matter that much to you? I am under the (possibly mistaken) impression that members don't spend much time just hanging out in the guild hall.

What exactly, in your mind, constitutes a "reasonable chance"?[/quote]

Warblade and Foxbat nailed it. Reasonable chance --> Minimum effort to advertise via guild announcement and focus topic for specific thread, instead of garbled

There *are* other factors than GvG (especially when actual level of GvG is currently minimal in a vastly PvE guild). Yes Aesthetics matter, Yes people hang out in the Guild Hall, or used to... until it got ugly and inconvenient. Lighting matters, convenience matters, aesthetics matters.

Most of all, I am insulted by the attitude that new players don't matter when you don't know them personally, nor given any reason to use fora.

Important Topics about guild-wide changes need to be focused and broadcasted, or yes, I will cause some stir when people get lazy.

[Lurker Wyrm]

I will cause some stir when people get lazy.

Blowing up on guild chat and insulting half the guild is hardly causing "some stir." Then again, you also tried to change the guild hall without consulting anyone and threw a temper tantrum when you couldn't, so I'm not really seeing where you get off standing on a soap box. Next thing you're going to tell us we're not doing enough for the poor little critters that become roadkill.

Most of all, I am insulted by the attitude that new players don't matter when you don't know them personally

There you go over-reacting again. I know you and I didn't really think you mattered in this any more than the new people I don't know.

nor given any reason to use fora.

You like living by double standards don't you? The forums have been and probably always will be our primary form of communication across the guild. Seems to me you're the one with more to blame for not encouraging/requiring the new members you invite to join the forums.

You can only blame us up to a certain extent for not publicizing this enough. Sooner or later you're going to have to take responsibility and accept the fact that you're the one who invited these people and felt the forums were unimportant enough not to direct them here.

I am not going to go to every new member and ask them if they want to be a part of something. It's not a good use of my time and there's too much information to convey for it to be practical in any way. If someone wants to GvG they can send me a pm or post in the GvG thread. Even if they said "I didn't read any of the GvG topic but I'm still interested in giving it a try" I would get in contact with them (probably via pm) to find out how much experience with it they had, what their skill unlock % was like, what role they might be interested in, etc., etc., etc. I don't want to have the guild roster open 24/7 on the off chance that I'll see someone online I haven't advertised to yet.

[theGrimm]

Adding to that, reasons that should be presented IMO would include (and not be limited to)
- Aesthetics: Some of us have no taste for stepping into a barren wasteland while others might like the visual horror of the Jade one. One of the considerations for the old hall was also the clear lighting which let us take the outfits screenies without worrying about the golden lighting that some of the halls bathed us in.
- GvG Matches: It would be better to have halls that suit the style of play that RB wants to use.
- NPC Service Convenience: Locations of the NPCs in relation to the spawn point is another deciding factor IMO.

Aesthetics: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon land is very pretty, in my opinion.
GvG Matches: As soon as realised that there was more to the guild than the service area, I realised I'd probably spend most of a GvG map lost in a corner.
NPC Service Convenience: Well, mor convenient than the frosy place we have before.

If I had to take a vote, it would be no (for the isle of meditation). As much as I like the aesthetics, it would be selfish of me to expect guildies to navigate it in GvG. Mind you, if I'm lost, imagine how lost attackers would be.

And if it makes any difference to the current conversation, I didn't feel unwelcome. I had to be a little proactive in the guild channel, and a little proactive in this forum, but once I opened my trap, it wasn't too hard to find out was going on.

[Seijin]

If I didn't post in the forums or talk in guild chat, where do you think I'd be? Remember, someone said I'm one of the exceptions that was not part of RB in any other way than in GW that somehow stayed? In order to be noticed anywhere thats new to you, you have to be proactive and not be silent. How often do you notice the quiet people at work who say nothing when given the chance? How often do you notice the quiet people in class who do not participate? When forced to, they will speak, but other than that, they have no voice because they do not participate in the discussion.

As for going through a thread...I go through every thread that happens to get bumped up from a new post. Its not hard to do. Go to the last page and check out what's going on. A mouse click and some loading time is all it takes. If you are too lazy to check other topics simply because they don't interest you, then don't call other people lazy for not making a new topic devoted to you so you can save yourself a few mouse clicks. I even check out the ZoS alliance forums. I may not post much, but at least I find out whats going on. Its not like the discussion had nothing to do with GvG or they were trying to hide it and go behind people's backs.

I don't GvG much, but I understand having a GH can help the GvGers style of play and that is important. So what if we're mainly a PvE guild. How much PvE happens in the GH? What do you accomplish by hanging out at the GH other than transferring stuff from mules, seeing the NPC's, or going after the drunkard title? As far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of PvE happens in the game environment itself, not our GH. Yeah, I love the aesthetics of some of the GH's, but can I sacrifice aesthetics to allow the GvGers do their thing? Yeah, I can because I don't live in the damn GH. Yeah joke around about my mules being there. I could care less what GH I leave them in as long as the NPC's are around. I am not an advocate of form over function though. And function for a GH is primarily GvG.

I mean seriously, this is getting stupid. BTW, don't bring topics up at all if you never want them to be discussed. I mean seriously, that whole alpha topic stuff, I was online when that happened. Just don't talk about it if you don't want it to appear in conversation.

The guild message...okay, that one I think i said I never read that much. I never said that I don't glance at it though. I can tell when a major change occurs in it. If I see a change, I do read it over. I think the guild message should contain information for people to be aware of. I think at one time it asked new members to come post at the forums and introduce themselves so we could get to know them and hopefully engage in discussions. If they can't do that, what does that say about them? Its not hard to do. I did it when I was new. If you went and got a new job, and you didn't talk to anyone that you didn't have to, do you honestly think people are going to approach you if they don't have to? Again, they have to want to get to know the rest of us, not the other way around. If you recruit someone, how about urging them to post so the rest of us know someone knew is there. I have no clue if any of the new people have posted anywhere in this forum. Grimm posted before we invited him. Damadmoo posted recently, but other than that, I'm not sure that I've seen anyone else post.

If any of the new members are reading this, let me tell you something. And I'm not trying to be mean. But please, speak for yourselves. Don't let others represent you when you have the chance to speak. Your opinions do matter and we'll listen. It also promotes communication and allows us to get to know you. Don't stay quiet. Don't be passive. If you're shy, I'm shy too. Proactive, be proactive or you'll rarely ever be noticed.



Okay, i'm done being pissed off now...I think