[SPOILERS] Yossarian blames Caledorn

[YossarianLives]

Thanks for your thoughts Caledorn. I'll keep your insights in mind during the next iteration of the rankings, after the snake pick. I hadn't realized that Halvgud is a RL friend of yours. Glad you brought him on board!

I worked on a spreadsheet over the weekend for this game. It's largely borrowed from the RB Demogame spreadsheet. Thanks Old Harry and Scooter! If the lurkers think it's missing anything, let me know.

[YossarianLives]

Chat that Caledorn and I had yesterday while the site was down. We discussed possible choices for the snake pick (I redacted some info on the Diplo game Cal is playing, since he's supposed to be playing anonymously):

YossarianLives:
Is Realms Beyond down, or is it just me? 12:29 PM
Caledorn:
I can't connect to either CFC or RB. 12:33 PM
YossarianLives:
Oh weird! 12:33 PM
CFC is working for me 12:33 PM
YossarianLives:
I was thinking about our snake pick. I'd really like to try to snag Inca if we can get it 1:13 PM
Caledorn:
Why Inca? 1:13 PM
YossarianLives:
For the free Creative trait 1:13 PM
Caledorn:
Ah yes, the Terraces 1:14 PM
They're a powerful UB for sure! 1:14 PM
YossarianLives:
Especially paired with an Exp leader 1:15 PM
Caledorn:
I just hope we don't get Emp difficulty 1:15 PM
I'm getting tired of exorbitant maintenance costs on cities 1:16 PM
YossarianLives:
What difficulty is your diplo game? 1:17 PM
Caledorn:
In the other Pitboss I'm playing in we're playing on Deity, which is ridiculous on a huge earth map. My colony in [REDACTED] costs me 16 gold pt at size 3, and I'm playing [REDACTED] 1:17 PM
YossarianLives:
Maybe we should change our vote to Monarch, then? 1:17 PM
Caledorn:
Lol at your question there 1:17 PM
I wouldn't mind 1:17 PM
YossarianLives:
I'm sure that's what Plako would have chosen anyway 1:17 PM
I haven't been keeping track of the votes so I have no idea what is ahead at this point 1:18 PM
Caledorn:
Yeah, me too. I hope mapmakers choice is the leading vote. I haven't tallied either.. 1:18 PM
Would you prefer Inca over India? 1:19 PM
YossarianLives:
I think only one other team voted mapmakers choice. I could be wrong, though 1:19 PM
Yeah, just because we're India in the ISDG. I want something a little different this time 1:20 PM
I promise we won't choose [REDACTED], that way you get variety, too! 1:20 PM
Caledorn:
The UB is not among my favorites anyways. 1:22 PM
YossarianLives:
No, it is a horrible Civ 1:22 PM
I guess the uu isn't the worst, but still 1:22 PM
Caledorn:
And I think they start with Myst on top of that 1:22 PM
YossarianLives:
Yeah, Inca too, unfortunately 1:22 PM
But at least it gets Agri 1:22 PM
Caledorn:
Isabella is a good leader 1:23 PM
Spi exp I believe 1:23 PM
YossarianLives:
Yeah, I would take Isabella if some of the other strong Exp leaders fall 1:26 PM
For example, if we were #1 in the snake pick, chose Inca, and then got stuck with the last leader pick 1:26 PM
Huayna is Exp / Fin, right? That would be my top leader pick 1:27 PM
Caledorn:
Indeed! 1:27 PM
YossarianLives:
Or if Inca falls before we are up, then I would go for Surry 1:27 PM
Exp / Cre 1:28 PM
But we wouldn't want Surry of Inca, since we'd have double-Creative 1:28 PM
Caledorn:
Exp isn't necessary on Monarch though? 1:28 PM
YossarianLives:
I think so. Org is the trait that becomes more powerful with higher maintenance costs 1:29 PM
Caledorn:
Ah, right. I keep mixing those two 2:13 PM
YossarianLives:
Yeah, I don't tend to be a big fan of Org, but I think it can be really useful 2:22 PM
Lots of half-price buildings, iirc 2:22 PM
YossarianLives:
I added a few small details to the spreadsheet, just some information about tech costs and soldier points 2:38 PM
Caledorn:
Great I need to set up that Dropbox sharing too 2:41 PM
YossarianLives:
Well, we still have time 2:46 PM
I hope we can get the game started soon. Maybe even this weekend? 2:46 PM
I wonder how long the snake pick will take 2:46 PM
Caledorn:
I will be pleasantly surprised if Maga manages to get the game started this weekend. 3:21 PM
Hopefully the snake pick won't take weeks, like it did in the ISDG 3:22 PM
YossarianLives:
Plako will bang out the map, I'm sure 3:22 PM
Did it take that long, really? 3:22 PM
Caledorn:
Yeah, he's quick I believe 3:22 PM
I think it took nearly two weeks yes.. Two teams, including CFC, used nearly the entire time allotment 3:22 PM
YossarianLives:
The other thing we have considered is getting a good naval civ, since naval combat is supposed to be important 3:23 PM
Oh right, I do remember that! 3:23 PM
We sure did take our time 3:23 PM
Caledorn:
I totally suck at naval warfare 3:23 PM
YossarianLives:
Yeah, must say it's not one of my strong suits, either 3:23 PM
Caledorn:
Yeah, CFC is not the most... efficient... team. Lol 3:23 PM
YossarianLives:
I'd usually prefer to move off the coast 3:23 PM
Caledorn:
Me too 3:23 PM
Although TGL is a really powerful wonder if there are a few island colony sites available 3:24 PM
YossarianLives:
It's really powerful even without any islands, as long as the other teams maintain OB 3:25 PM
On RB, it's fairly common to close borders with the TGL team to prevent those juicy trade routes 3:25 PM
Caledorn:
Yeah, no wonder 3:25 PM
(pun intended) 3:25 PM
But I believe plako will place some islands around since naval warfare has been prioritised 3:26 PM
Which means a TGL civ can sustain itself with Mercantilism economy if it gets it's claws in one or more such islands 3:27 PM
YossarianLives:
Yeah, good point 3:27 PM
So maybe a naval civ wouldn't be a bad idea, to contest those islands 3:27 PM
I wouldn't do it if we can't see our starts though. If we see our starts and we're on the coast with seafood, then sure 3:28 PM
Caledorn:
It's definitely something to consider. But, of we do that we are very depending on TGL 3:28 PM
And we might not want to lock ourselves to such a specialised economy 3:28 PM
Yes 3:28 PM
YossarianLives:
Yeah, good point 3:28 PM
I was thinking how going for wonders or even first-to bonuses is going to be really tough with LP playing... 3:29 PM
I don't know how he is with demohacking, though. I can't seem to remember reading about him doing anything like that 3:29 PM
And I don't know if Arki or Magno could help in that department 3:29 PM
But maybe WillLP? Hmm, I might have to read some of his threads 3:30 PM
Caledorn:
I know Arki isn't any good at it. Magno I just doubt have the skill. William I have no clue about 3:30 PM
Magno just strikes me asa great and nice guy, with severely lacking skills. I suspect I play a stronger game than him.. 3:31 PM
YossarianLives:
Yeah, I think the Spanish site is a few years behind in their Civ skill development 3:32 PM
It's really interesting seeing how styles have evolved. What was considered smart plays 5 years ago are now obsolete 3:32 PM
Caledorn:
Yeah 3:32 PM
Did you read about the new culture victory debacle? 3:32 PM
Sounded like a semifun strategy, but has a ridiculous demand on espionage 3:33 PM
YossarianLives:
Hmm, no I don't think so. Where is that referenced? 3:34 PM
Is that in KrillMod? 3:34 PM
Caledorn:
It was discovered in the CFC HOF games. Involves gifting some cities to the AI, about 100 spies, a shitload of espy points on said civ, and Spread culture missions 3:34 PM
YossarianLives:
Oh no, I don't venture outside of our ISDG thread too often at CFC, unless I'm looking for specific information 3:35 PM
Caledorn:
I found it very interesting that tactic. Obviously impossible in Mp though 3:36 PM
YossarianLives:
So what's that, you somehow get the AI to spread culture in your cities? 3:38 PM
I definitely don't read the HOF games. Those are so far removed from MP civ that it's like a completely different game. I read the strategy section sometimes though 3:38 PM
Caledorn:
No, you use the Spread Culture mission over and over in a city that has your culture present 3:38 PM
The mission spreads about 5% of the current # of your culture there each time, and it's pretty cheap to execute 3:39 PM
So you can get cultural victories very early. Much earlier than most other victory types. 3:39 PM
YossarianLives:
Interesting. 3:39 PM
Might have to try that out sometime. I way under-utilize the espionage system 3:39 PM
Caledorn:
Me too. I thought I'd try it sp sometime 3:40 PM
Tuesday, August 6, 2013 - 9:35 PM
YossarianLives:
RB is back up FYI 9:35 PM
Caledorn:
Thanks 10:17 PM

Basically, my top choice would be to get Inca and pair that with an Exp leader. If Inca falls before we're up, then Surry probably jumps up to my top choice, maybe with a civ like China?

My favorite trait overall is Exp, so I'd really like to get that. Fin is obviously a top choice too, though a little more boring. Creative is great for the free border pops, plus the fast libraries. I like Ind a lot for the fast Forges primarily, and if there aren't a lot of Ind leaders then you get the edge on Wonders, too. However, like I said in the chat, I anticipate that it'll be really hard to beat LP to any of the major wonders. Of course, it would be great to Oracle MC if we do end up with an Ind leader. Spi is great for the civic switches, which would tie in nicely with our goal of staying flexible and less rigid in our planning. I'm not a huge fan of Phi, only because I feel like we'd have to commit to the 'Mids and Rep if we go that route. Org and Imp have their benefits, but I don't play with them much and I feel like I wouldn't be able to take the most advantage of leaders who have those traits. I guess we'll consider Org if we end up with Emporer difficulty, and try to take advantage of all those cheap buildings. I feel like Agg, Pro, and Cha are basically throw-away traits, we'll probably avoid those.

As for Civs, like I said in the chat, my main preference is “not India”. I’d love to get Inca if possible. If not, I think the most important things to look at are starting techs and not having completely useless UB / UU. If we get starting screenshots, that will obviously dictate which civs we’re looking at. If we don’t get screenshots, then we’ll try to focus on Civs who start with Agri / Wheel / Mining. Hunting becomes less horrible since we’re all starting with Scouts. Myst is pretty bad, as is Fishing in most cases. Some Civ’s I have in the back of my head are China, as I mentioned earlier, France, Egypt, Ottomans, and Babylon. If we get screenshots and we’re on the coast, then maybe Carthage, Dutch or Portugal.

[YossarianLives]

So, I've been looking around, and I can't find any sort of explanation for the big shutdown yesterday. Does anyone know what happened?

[Qgqqqqq]

No, no idea. Ask BRick or KoP.

[Krill]

Network issue.

[Old Harry]

I'm not normally a fan but if you're only having eight teams IND might be pretty good, although I'd wait until the end of the snake pick and only pick one of those guys if less than two other teams have...

I like the sound of EXP Inca too. But if you're stuck 3rd or 4th in the snake pick and India and Inca have gone who will you pick?

[YossarianLives]

I'm holding out faith that not everyone here will realize how much better Inca is compared to the other civs, so it might be available longer than it reasonably should be. But if it gets taken, then I think Pacal or Surry would be my first pick. Inca is the only civ I would choose before leader, so if it gets taken, then I'll look for which leader is left with the best traits.

Are we crashing the site? Too many games being lurked by too many new members?

[Cheater Hater]

Well, I might as well dedlurk here, seeing as how it's the only team made up of people I recognize/played with (though the fact that it's now a Team Gillette reunion certainly helps ) I'm not sure how much I'll contribute--to be honest, the reason I've hesitant to make any action is that I assumed this game wouldn't get off the ground (the unknown host, the drama surrounding Parkin, the rules arguments, and the lack of familiarity with the players among others), but it looks like this game may actually start

Now that we have 9 teams, if we assume India and Inca are worth picking over civs, who are the top 7 civs in the dark? How much does it depend on what the other civs are? (Other than Industrious, do other traits get worse in multiples?)

And I'm really interested in playing against Haram and Barteq, if you catch my drift--has anyone heard of them?

[YossarianLives]

Hi Cheater Hater, welcome aboard! Scooter and Caledorn were both Team Gillette members at one point or another, so this truly is a reunion. Now we just need to get Mackoti and SevenSpirits

One thing, though. Caledorn isn't an unknown host! He's hosted lots of games, most notably the current ISDG. Ok, ok, he's new to hosting on RB, but don't worry, he'll be reliable

That's a really good point about Haram and Barteq that I had not considered. Now I'm really excited about playing against them, too! No, I've never heard of them. Barteq just has the one post on RB, and it looks like Haram is not yet registered on the site. Unless these are more of Caledorn's friends coming out of the woodworks, I imagine your hunch is correct

As for top 7 leaders, that's hard to say. I don't think any of the other traits have the same quality as Ind in that they get worse with more people picking them. I guess the more people who pick Fin, the more pressure there is to also pick it so we're not the one non-Fin team out there. But here's a list of some strong leaders that I would be happy to end up with, in no particular order.

Pacal (Exp, Fin)
Surry (Exp, Cre)
Willem (Fin, Cre)
Bismark (Exp, Ind)
Huayna (Fin, Ind)
Lizzy (Fin, Phi)
Joao (Exp, Imp)
Mehmed (Exp, Org) - if Emporer
Darius (Fin, Org) - if Emporer

If we pick close to the end of the snake pick, though, we should figure out how we can get the most synergy between leader and civ, so I imagine that will influence who we end up with.

[Cheater Hater]

Oh, Caledorn was on Gillette? I didn't know that--granted, there were about 20 people at the start of the demogame, but still
(can it really be a reunion if the game's still going? )

I didn't mean I had doubts about Caledorn hosting (as even though I knew sunrise wasn't hosting this game, I didn't know it was Caledorn specificically) as much as Maga_R organizing--she seems indecisive, and a player organizing the game raises some red flags, especially when I'm not familiar with that person.

I'm still not sure what to think about Harem and Barteq--Locke and Cervantes had a hidden meaning, so maybe that's something to check. That would be interesting with full diplo too--was PB4 AI Diplo?

Is there a particular reason why you left Exp/Phi off the list, considering you two like Exp and put Liz on there? I know Phi is a step below the top 3 (and I probably overrate it), but it seems better than Exp/Ind :/

Caledorn's going to be so confused, unless he knows RB history