Cheater Hater's PBEM58 Thread (with a surprise post lead!)

[NobleHelium]

Yes, they would break.

[Cheater Hater]

That sucks--that means I'll have to organize my Dropbox folder sometime when I have a lot of time to kill
However, there is good news late tonight--we managed to do a full turn in 12 hours!
T12 Report:
The report unfortunately isn't that exciting today; the main new news is the scout move:


The plains farm hill (it's weird just saying that ) seems like a really good city site--5 resources, plains hill capital, a floodplain, barely any jungle, and a fourth of the city is still fogged. In addition, I assume there has to be a halfway-decent city with the two pigs (even if it is choked by jungle), so there are some decent cities to my east--though I still am planning on moving the first settler south at this point.

Since I technically did make a worker move at the capital (and my city did grow), I figured I'd give you a capital shot--though I probably should actually give my capital a name (and come up with a naming scheme) since no one has seen my capital yet--any ideas?

[Cheater Hater]

T12 C&D:
There's a lot to cover here, but I don't think I'll get to it all tonight--still, we can at least start
We'll start not with the demos, but with the top cities screen:


Obviously we grew (in our glitched corner of the world glory), but AT and Twinkletoes also grew (as told by the score). We can also see that AT and eastway researched techs this turn, and the demos screen gives us more details:


Starting with the easy stuff, soldiers isn't anything new--2 1000 increases from the pop increases by AT and Twinkletoes covers it (meaning no military techs)

Food is slightly more interesting--Twinkletoes farmed the 3-food resource and is working that and the clams/crabs for the high, and eastway is working the netted clams for the low, but the average could tell us if AT researched Fishing or not (coming later)

GNP has a new leader--someone now has 23 GNP! How did they accomplish this? Let's find out:
16 (palace+city square+free beaker) +3 (clams/crabs) +1 (riverside 3 food) +2 (arrow tech) +1 (known tech bonus) =23
That almost certainly means Twinkletoes is researching Bronze Working, and has met either AT or eastway (Bronze Working is the only arrow tech someone knows, and Twinkletoes is the only person at size 2 that hasn't researched it yet).
Detailed GNP will have to come later--I'm guessing AT researched Fishing and eastway researched Agriculture, but I'm obviously not sure, and I want to do detailed GNP analysis tomorrow to see if arrow or non-arrow techs are being researched.

[Cheater Hater]

T13 Report and C&D:
Report is really boring today--I can even put the worker move and scout move into one screenshot


I'm not sure where I should be heading next--I can either head back east through the jungle, or more likely head west from my capital--the west is more likely since we already know that there's someone in that direction due to eastway losing the espionage battle.

Now to continue where I left off with the C&D, now with today's demos for reference:


Since there aren't any changes I noticed, we can focus on the two things from yesterday: crop yield average and GNP calculation/AT and eastway's techs. First we'll work with the food:

Average=9->36 total
eastway=7 (city+netted clams)
Twinkletoes=11 (city+farmed 3-food+clams)
B4ndit=8 max (city+farmed 3-food)
AT= 10 or more

That didn't tell us much--all it says is that AT is working a 2 food or more tile. Then again, we know that AT can't be working any more production tiles, so AT is either working a grassland riverside tile or the clams.
Now for GNP calculations:

Twinkletoes=23 (explained above)
(more coming later)

[Cheater Hater]

Yes, we just had a 3.5 hour turn
T14 Report and C&D:
Another 3 hours, another scout move


Now to more demos stuff--this is where writing such detailed C&D starts to hurt me:


As such, more quick-hits:

• Twinkletoes discovered a tech, probably Bronze Working as we discussed above--everyone has Bronze Working at this point as well as told by the soldier scores and the production rankings
  
• B4ndit still hasn't grown yet--is he building a second worker, building a settler, or doing something crazy like working the gems?
  
• B4ndit also researched a tech--I'll figure that out when I get a moment to breath and figure out all the GNP stuff (obviously that isn't coming tonight)
  
• eastway grew back to size 2--will he whip again?
  

This is weird--I feel like I'm giving up value by not doing all the C&D, but I feel like my most important duty is to keep the turn moving, especially in these early turns

[Cheater Hater]

To be honest, I'm kinda glad we had the mini-break--then again, I cause it so...
T15 Report and C&D:
Hooray, we're at size 3! However, no one else is--we know B4ndit is building another worker/settler, and eastway had anarchy and whipped, but that doesn't explain Twinkletoes and AT--they probably revolted into slavery, but it doesn't appear they whipped, so they'll grow next turn. Since I grew, I'll throw in a capital picture:


Yes, I'm working a forest hill, but the mine will complete next turn--then I will grow again, so that forest hill will be worked for a while
Long term I plan to revolt to slavery after completing the settler (using a chop), whip a granary (hopefully I can 2-pop whip that), build a worker, and then I'm not sure--probably a warrior to grow to size 3, then either a settler or library based on my tech path.

Scout moves are starting to become less useful, but here it is anyway:


Yeah, that might not have been the best move--I want to go west, but I moved onto the hill to see the water--I guess moving SW-SW-W is optimal for seeing new tiles and getting to the west most-quickly, but it still means there won't be many scout move updates in the near future :/

Now to the demos, and some interesting stuff:


GNP is interesting--how do we (and more importantly the rival best) get 25?
16 (base) +4 (clams+wheat) + 5 (2 arrow techs: 40% of 14) =25
So that means the tech must either be Masonry, Animal Husbandry, or Pottery. Assuming no one has researched Mysticism we can discount Masonry, which means it's either Animal Husbandry or Pottery. For Animal Husbandry to get the double-arrow bonus, that person needs Hunting, which we haven't seen from anyone yet (other than the last round of techs I haven't calculated yet). Since we just saw the increase, I'm guessing it was Twinkletoes now researching Pottery, but I'm not sure on that :/

Now that we have more GNP info, I'll try to figure out each GNP value:

T13 Average=20
T14 Average=19
T15 Average=21
B4ndit: 17
Twinkletoes T14: 20 (size 2, no arrow bonuses since he just completed a tech)
Twinkletoes T15: 25 (explained above)
eastway+AT T14: 39-43
eastway+AT T15: 42-46
eastway+AT: 42 or 43 (it hasn't changed between T14 and T15)

1 17-B4ndit: He's still size 1, and chose the farmed wheat over the unnetted clams (even assuming he has Fishing--he could be researching that now since it's a non-arrow tech)
1 25-Twinkletoes: Explained above
1 22
1 20
The last two are eastway and AT--one is researching an arrow tech, one is not.

The one other thing is that someone jumped up to 13 food, probably netting the clams.

[Old Harry]

When does the granary start to pay off?

[Cheater Hater]

I just generally think that the granary seems good in a high-food capital, and if I can 2-pop whip it and overflow a lot into a worker, it should work well--though thinking about it a bit more, maybe I should swap the worker and the granary--that could be something I need to sandbox (and I need to sandbox if I can 2-pop whip either side of that).

T16 Report and C&D:
Another quick turnaround, and now my production is starting to go quickly


The mine finished, the warrior finishes at EOT, and next turn I'll start building my settler. By comparison, the scout move revealed exactly one new tile

Now to demos:


35 GNP is nice--that's what the gems (along with double arrow bonus) does to your GNP

To help with some of my future calculations, I've also included some of eastway's graphs:

In non-gloating news, there's some interesting soldier stuff I need to calculate--2k increase in the leader, 1k increase in the rear, and 8k total. Time for serious math! The nice thing about soldiers (unlike GNP) is that we don't need to worry about rounding.

Starting with what we know from the last update (T13)
AT: Mining+BW+Warrior+2 pop=13000
Twinkletoes:Mining+Wheel+2 pop=7000
eastway: Mining+BW=10000
B4ndit: Mining+Wheel=6000
Total=36000

Now to add things we know for sure by moving to T14/T15:
Min=13000, Max=15000
Total=13750*4=55000
AT: Base=13000=13000
Twinkletoes: Base+BW=7000+8000=15000
eastway: Base+2 pop+Warrior=10000+1000+2000=13000
B4ndit: Base+BW=6000+8000=14000
Current Total=55000 (finished!)

Now to go to T16:
Min=14000, Max=17000
Total=15750*4=63000
AT: Base+Wheel?=13000=17000?
Twinkletoes: Base=15000
eastway: Base+Wheel?=13000+4000=17000?
B4ndit: Base=14000
Current Total=63000 (finished!)

Summary of new things:

• eastway built a warrior on T14
  
• eastway and AT both probably researched Wheel on T16
  

Is there an easy way to read the actual values for GNP/Soldiers/etc out of the graphs? I'm assuming I have to do pixel work or something (or just be satisfied with knowing when changes happen), but am I missing something like the ability to turn on the axes, or something like that?

[Cheater Hater]

Having such quick turns is weird
T17 Report and C&D:
Not much happened this turn, but I thought of a possibility to change my micro plan:


The main thing here is which forest I decide to chop. If I chop the forest SW of the city, my settler actually gets to the grassland spot with a move left, and thus settles a turn quicker:


The first time I bring out Paint, and it probably won't be the last
The red path is the path I planned with my earlier micro, and the blue path is the one that would work if I chop the SW forest. The main problem with the blue plan is that I waste a worker turn getting to the SW forest, and such the settler comes out a turn later. While this is balanced by settling a turn earlier (and thus the settle turn is a wash), testing the situation leads to another problem--the late chop means I can't 2-pop whip the followup Worker. As such, I'm going to stay with the current plan of chopping right away, then revolting to Slavery, 2-pop whipping the worker, then riding the overflow into a granary.

The other thing that needs to be decided right now is my next tech. Right now I think I want to go Writing so I can get an early Library (in either city; the capital for an early scientist or the second city for the culture), moving to Animal Husbandry, then Iron Working. After that, I might try for a religion if none have fallen yet to help my border pops--then again, if my early GNP lead holds, I might be first to Code of Laws and can afford to wait--that's looking way too far in the future though

Time for a quick C&D report, mainly looking at the demos today:


I'll be honest, there's no change here, I'm just posting the demos to show myself being first in all the categories that matter (aka not happiness/health)
In more serious C&D, the only change today was AT growing to size 3--that must mean either Twinkletoes is building a worker/settler, or Twinkletoes did something like 1-pop whip and immediately grow at EOT--it also could be something like a combination of revolting to Slavery and not yet netting the clams; I don't think it's worth trying to sim out each path since I have no idea where Twinkletoes is.

[Old Harry]

Time to call it