[SPOILERS] Pindicator plays PBEM62 (not to be confused with Twitch Plays Civ)

[NobleHelium]

No, I'm pretty sure he knows it's fucking aggressive and is trying to diplo you into thinking it's not aggressive.

Or probably more accurately, he thinks it's not aggressive (because of course, he's changed! Or maybe he was never aggressive at all and was simply misunderstood!), but he knows you'll think it's fucking aggressive, and is thus trying to diplo you into thinking it's not aggressive.

[pindicator]

Well, to say he won't learn from it I think is wrong. He's been sending me chats on Gmail for half the day, starting with when I first posted. He knows exactly how I'll react - which is perhaps the biggest reason not to aggressively attack - so it's more a misguided notion that this is the only way he can win.

Wut?

He was asking me when the save was coming at first. I just told him I was tired from the hiking and didn't get up in time to play so I had posted the previous turn's report and said I'd get to this one later. So we chatted about the trip a bit. Then Noble posted and he immediately says something along the lines of "oh there's noble telling you to destroy me." So he's clearly amped up about the game and save and knows exactly what he's done to us.

[Krill]

The only game more anticipated than a supposed elites game would be a Noble v Commodore duel.

I'm thinking we should boycott all games until it happens

[Gaspar]

The only game more anticipated than a supposed elites game would be a Noble v Commodore duel.

I'm thinking we should boycott all games until it happens

The only thing less likely than a Noble v Commodore duel occurring is that "Elites" game actually finishing if it started, since all of you would just seek ways to end the game early as soon as it looked like you weren't winning.

[Krill]

No, the only thing less likely occurring is you or Noble publicly stating Commodore made a smart decision.

[pindicator]

[Gaspar]

No, the only thing less likely occurring is you or Noble publicly stating Commodore made a smart decision.

Well, Commodore has made many more smart decisions than you have had graceful losses.

[NobleHelium]

Commodore has made plenty of smart decisions, like when he beat Gaspar in their duel.

[pindicator]

No, the only thing less likely occurring is you or Noble publicly stating Commodore made a smart decision.

See, this is also something I'm grappling with. That settling a city up on my like this is a good decision. It seems to be the prevailing train of thought that I should be settled up on, or maybe that settling up on any neighbor is a good idea and I just happen to be the unlucky beneficiary of that doctrine in recent games. I'm very tempted to throw my game here to get across to everyone that settling up on me like this means a duel to the death and I am more than happy to throw my game for it. I mean, look what happened to Barry.

(PB18 spoilers)

I'm sure team Barry still thinks I threw my game by whipping axes to invade them. But if anyone says that they fail to see that I had lost the moment i was settled up on in both sides. Without land to expand peacefully into that everyone else was getting, I was already out for the count. So I'm supposed to let the offending teams just do whatever they want without a complaint? Or maybe I'm supposed to tech up to something like HBR and give them time to consolidate their gains? No, i lost the moment I was hemmed in there. And I'm going to drag someone down with me every time that happens.

So it comes down to whether I think this is bad enough that I can't peacefully overcome it. Map data would be helpful for that decision but it's really, really early still. T20 is nuts for making a longterm decision like this, but by what I know we're on a small map and Commodore is far closer to me than any other neighbor.

Here's what we do know:





So where can we settle?
And if we get that land, is it enough to compete?

[pindicator]

Turn 021

Here's a place we decided not to settle:



1A was the original spot for our settler to go, but the holy city just screws us over so badly. In 9 turns Commodore will take that pig; in order for us to get culture dominance we would need a city to have the pig be first ring and for us to pop our 2nd ring before he pops his 3rd ring. We haven't even started our settler yet. 1B is an attempt to leave spot #2 available for settling with our third settler (more on #2 soon), but it's just a worse overlal city and a horrible 2nd city. Another idea was 1N of the fur and try to chop Stonehenge, but that has no food until it pops a border. So for these reasons, we decided not to settle here. And this means Commodore pretty much owns the entire land between our capital and him, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

Relevant chat snipit:

NobleHelium
so yeah
pin
to be honest with you
i think you're fucked either way
Pindicator
hey
NobleHelium
because taking that city is going to be a bitch or maybe impossible
and it's going to pop third ring in 9 turns
and the rest of the land that i see
is a lot worse than what's in that direction
Pindicator
yeah
NobleHelium
and
Gaspar
man cathy would be so good here
NobleHelium
if you don't contest it
you're basically saying
that you're going to let your capital be first ring
to commodore
so yeah
you're basically fucked
i mean
Gaspar
I think
NobleHelium
maybe you can plant NW of the fur and get the pig back eventually
Gaspar
If you try and attack Commodore
NobleHelium
well
Gaspar
you're just going to end up first eliminated
NobleHelium
even if you get the pig back
you wouldn't get the tile 1N of the pig probably
which means you'd never have your first ring
Gaspar
I mean now, obviously
NobleHelium
unless that city falls
this is where gaspar gets sad
that he types at like half my speed
because he can't effectively argue when i am talking so much faster
Gaspar
I type plenty fast
I just have less convcition about everything
Pindicator
i'm considering w of the fur and city #3 going NE in the corn/corn/copper spot
Gaspar
so i stop, erase, restart 20 times
I think you should just Krill it up
and try and settle on everyone else
NobleHelium
well w of the fur doesn't look good to me
well
Pindicator
it shares the deer?
NobleHelium
yes but it's right behind 3 hills
that is terribad
Pindicator
yeah, it's not good
NobleHelium
can you build henge
somewhere else
then
Pindicator
the problem with settling up on everyone else is there's a fucking isthmus between me and everyone else
NobleHelium
plant NE of fur
Gaspar
yeah
fuck this map already
NobleHelium
this is why i am super picky
about mapmakers

Here's another spot we thought about settling:



It's a fantastic spot, and there's a lot of merit in going for it. The idea is to take the best city spots available and backfill. We take his move of aggressive plants and we double down on it by reaching ourselves. Of course, it pretty much demands we make a 3rd worker before anything else, otherwise we'll never connect the cities. And on top of that how do we defend it? Also, not pictured: It's closer to THH than it is to us (although I think there's water between this spot and THH).

It'd be great to get this spot and it made it to the final showdown. But we are not settling it. Too much distance, too easy for Commodore to tie us down to defending a wide front. He'll get sight into the city once his holy city pops borders to 3rd ring in 9 turns.

Relevant chat snipit:

Pindicator
yeah
alternative thought:
settle city #2 at corn/corn/copper
city #3 at corn/clam/spicex2
go for super good sites and hope he's backwards enough that i can get them established before he can be aggressive
Gaspar
i was actually just thinking corn/corn.copper
yeah
i think i like that idea
i mean
hes teched buddhism, hes going to tech archery soon
plus he has a terrible leader
so if you can get past the part
NobleHelium
well
Gaspar
where he has easy access to your cap
NobleHelium
normally i would say
yeah you can beat him long term
but like
Gaspar
you can definitely outtech him
NobleHelium
i look at the spot he just claimed
and the rest of the land that is visible
and how does that compare
Gaspar
man theres nothing like a good pandora station that you've been working on for like 5 years
Pindicator
i don't have the patience for that
Gaspar
i dont either usually
Pindicator
i always knock over my sandcastles half finished
NobleHelium
do you mean
NW of copper
that is really far dude
Pindicator
yeah
NobleHelium
that is like an azza city
Pindicator
yeah
Gaspar
yeah for sure
but you have to take some risks in this spot
the way i look at it
Pindicator
but he's expecting to be on the defensive; he's expecting me to attack
Gaspar
is if you go for the homerun
and whiff and get eliminated early
NobleHelium
well clearly whenever you want to fake an attack
Gaspar
thats a lot less frustrating
NobleHelium
you just need me to make ten posts in your thread
Gaspar
than spending the next 100t
reprising pb8
in my mind at least
NobleHelium
anyway
how would you backfill
to get the fur
if you plant like that
i am not seeing it

At this point frustration starts to set in when I realize there aren't any good spots to settle:

Pindicator
axe rush?
Gaspar
heh
yeah
gonna need a lot of axes
w/40% so quickly
Pindicator
i was thinking of pillaging everything
just a blatant FU, i don't want your stuff, i just want to wreck it
NobleHelium
well like i said
i think you are fucked
either way
Gaspar
i mean the thing is
every turn
once that thing hits 3rd ring
you're going to open your save
and get pissed off
Pindicator
and that's only 9t away

There were still more bad second city locations to try



Originally this was going to be the 3rd city to go along with Corn/Corn/Copper up north. Take all the great spots and hope we can hold on long enough for quality to surpass jackassery. Try to hit the homerun. But as #2 fell out of favor, we started to look at #3 for the benefits it had: it wasn't as awful as the others. It wasn't as good as the others, but it also wasn't as bad as them either. High floor; low ceiling. We could try to chop out Stonehenge here maybe. That'd accomplish something, right?

More chat:

Pindicator
what about the corn/clam spot and chopping out henge?
it has 5 forests in range upon settling
NobleHelium
where exactly
is that spot
Pindicator
4W of the cpaital
NobleHelium
ok
that is true
you can borrow the cap's forests
that might work
but i would need to sim
to be convinced
Gaspar
its not bad
Pindicator
if we did that we could send our warrior to harass him
NobleHelium
well you should think about
what kind of message that sends
it could cause him to build a lot of archers
which could be a good thing
just make sure not to get archer rushed
cough

Things were so bad we even looked at this one:

Pindicator
okay, i got one more city location to consider
SW of the capital's copper
it is worth thinking about because the 3rd ring pop will get the pigs in 5t
Gaspar
thats a very second city kind of plant
Pindicator
lol, that was about as PC a response as I could hope for

This city was the equivalent of rolling over, you're not staking any new territory and with how small the map is you need to stake somethign with the 2nd city.

So yeah, those were the best choices we could come up with. In the end we went with city #3. And I sent my warrior towards Commodore. Because he expects it.



Also, our scout is probably dead.



Because the turn wasn't depressing enough


So where would you settle? What would your strategy be? Put it in the lurker thread because I want to read it later. I really have no idea how you play this aside from flipping the table or rolling over and deciding you've lost.