[SPOILERS] Serdoas and Nobles Thread with a little bit of Gaspar sprinkled in

[GermanJoey]

Hello, based on recommendation of the lurkers, your ivory has been upgraded to be first ring, moved to the tile 1SE of your settler along with the forest.

[Serdoa]

Was the hill changed into flat plains while doing so?

edit: And was the hill moved to the old ivory tile or is that a plains tile. IF plains tile, is it still forested or just naked plain?

edit2: Basically, can you please give me the rundown on both tiles so I know what was changed and can update the wb accordingly?

[GermanJoey]

Durr, sorry, late at night posting. I meant 1W of your settler, which was just a regular old plains tile before, but now has an ivory.

[Serdoa]

Thanks for the info

With this new information, a few things are set already:

1) Work Ivory at the start for at least 5 turns
2) Start researching Hunting for the cow

The Hunting research is basically set in stone, as the only other research that is mandatory is BW, TW, Pottery. Agri is debatable, as I will want it anyway, because I want AH and I want Pottery. Both early, Pottery most likely earlier (the Granary-bonus is more important than the 1fh and 1 commerce from improving Ivory I believe). So the research bonus from having Agri for those two is already 2/3s of the cost of Agri, making it very likely to research it up-front. Also I want at least 12 beakers produced naturally when starting with AH or Pottery (if I have Agri) because with the bonus-beaker that gives 13 and 13 x 1.4 is 18.2, adding a bonus beaker opposed to 12 x 1.4 = 16.8.

However, Hunting -> TW -> (Agri) -> Pottery -> BW / AH doesn't seem very compelling as the worker won't have anything to do, other than building roads for quite some time. IIRC for a start like that, one would prefer early BW, to speed it up with chops / Slavery and give the worker something to do to make it worthwhile. (For completeness sake: He could build two mines, but I need at least 4 pop for that to be worthwhile, which without Pottery and the low food will again take too long.)

Therefore, other research paths:

Hunting -> BW -> TW -> (Agri) -> Pottery -> AH
Hunting -> BW -> TW -> (Agri) -> AH -> Pottery
Hunting -> BW -> (Agri) -> AH -> TW -> Pottery
Hunting -> (Agri) -> AH -> BW -> TW -> Pottery
Hunting -> (Agri) -> AH -> TW -> Pottery -> BW

I think those are all possible deviations. If I go worker first and want to either chop or camp I will need either BW or AH after 16 turns. If I go workboat -> worker I need it after 19 turns.

Furthermore the earlier I get BW the earlier I can go into Slavery, making the Anarchy less costly. On the other hand, I'm not sure if I even want to use Slavery with this capital, as again earliest the 4th pop is actually worth slaving. And I'm not sure on even that. I remember something that working a grassland hill is worth the same as slaving that pop. Is Slavery even 30h for each pop or was that changed as well? I remember some mod changed that. Something to check for certain. If it is 30h stills, it probably is worth it as soon as I have the Granary in place. 14 food for growth is basically 2 turns.

[Serdoa]

Actual game starting screenie:

[Serdoa]

Scout Movement. In general I would only move away from this start if I would find a 6-food tile. That's unlikely on a map made specifically for us. Therefore the movement is more dependant on which direction I generally want to circle through and how many tiles I can uncover. North is blocked, West won't show much beyond what I get from settling anyhow. South or East therefore. Either onto the dyes or onto the grass 1NE of it.

I really don't think it makes a difference. And I guess settling first is the way to go in case I uncover something I want to explore towards.

Only to decide on worker or workboat first now before I can play my turn...

[NobleHelium]

YO WASSUP

[NobleHelium]

1) I would not settle before scouting, mistakes happen...more often than not. Probably all the time actually.
2) The most you would lose is two turns of scouting if you happen to want to turn around after settling, which is the worst case scenario so it's highly unlikely to happen. I'd rather take the potential upside of a better plant.
3) WB start with the ivory tile and the automatic 2H plant seems obvious to me, not going to sim it though. I realize RtR makes WBs built with food, which means the ivory tile isn't any better than say a forested deer, but that might actually mean that WB starts are better across the board. WB starts in general are underrated in Vanilla.
4) I would move onto the dye since I like ending turn on 2-movement tiles.

You can hit me up on chat if I'm still awake by the time you wake up.

[NobleHelium]

Yeah I'm going to say that the optimal start is probably WB -> grow to 2 -> Worker -> maybe a second Worker after that.

[Serdoa]

Hey Noble, good to see you I'll hit you up on chat sometimes today or tomorrow, game will be restarted anyway.

WB first is the way to go I agree. I simmed it yesterday and even though there is no fh difference between worker->wb and wb->worker at T2, worker first needs two more chops. Without those it is 40 fh behind (mostly food as wb first has 3 pop opposed to two with worker first). As we can use those chops later, its obviously worse. Also commerce is less. Only positive is that the settler is 2 turns earlier, but without much in terms of worker or warrior backup that's not that helpful. No camp on the ivory either.

I'll try now if workboat, grow to 2, worker, worker or some such is better than wb -> worker -> grow to 2.