[LURKERS] PB27 Map & Lurking: Walking in a :weed: wonderland

[GermanJoey]

Did you intend to say something in response to that post, MJW?

[MJW (ya that one)]

Did you intend to say something in response to that post, MJW?

I bumped it up because I disagreed with what you said about Taotao. Mackoti entering and leaving had a big impact on this game. I didn't have anything to add to mackoti's post so I just quoted it.

[Krill]

Well, we did think about telling people about the new world at the start, and if this had been a more "serious" game we would have. However, the flavor of this game was more along the lines of a big crazy adventure (if you look in the early pages of this thread, you'll see that even the lurkers didn't even want us to spoil what the map looked like for them!), so we thought it'd be ok if there were some surprises. That said, there were some clues:

1.) Before the game started, we tried to really ham it up to tell people to explore the damn map. (you actually did a really good job of this, I thought)
2.) There's no coastally-available ICTR... in order to push people towards Alphabet for this very purpose! (and also slow down classical-era tech pace a bit)
3.) If people did explore, than they'd notice that they were on a big continent with exactly half the players and yet only about 1/4 of the world map was visible! wouldn't it be way too lame if there were just two continents? why not just make a Pangaea if that was the way the map was gonna go?
4.) We specifically made a big deal about Circumnav being turned on so that people would be motivated to get some damn Caravels out there and look around.
5.) Several people figured out from demographics that, around the point that most land was "filled up," if they compared average land per player vs total land tiles, about 800 tiles were missing...

So, there's three ways to figure out that there's a New World out there pre-Astro: a.) deduction via thoroughly exploring your starting continent, b.) demographics math, and c.) building Caravels and then sending them out to sea. None of these three make it a sure thing that there's lush islands out there, but, so they say, fortune favors the bold...

The two civ bans we decided on were Phi Portugal (as they'd have a very easy time of bulbing Optics for pre-1AD new world settlements) and Pro Inca. We discussed Netherlands a bit, and decided that if one of the experienced players got it then we might reroll it, but otherwise leave it in because only a fairly skilled player should make it to Astro anyways. In this case, it was von Adlercreutz as the primary player and taotao as the dedlurker. I knew that the former wasn't very experienced or skilled from reading his CFC game (no offense vA), while taotao was a brand new MP player, so we thought it'd be OK. Well... taotao ended up being very very good, and then mackoti joined his team for awhile. Welp. On top of that, we didn't think of the fact that Cre+Netherlands actually has some significant synergy because of half-priced Observatories on top of already having a strong inclination to rush Astro. FWIW, Circumnav was supposed to be turned on and taotao should have won it, so you can fold that missing bonus into what he got from the EIM.

As far as the Dutch Dike goes, it's obviously amazing here for taotao, especially with the MoM, but I think the Russian UB has been just as good to REM, especially with early Rep from the mids. Note that the Dike seems to be bugged to not give any hammers on river tiles in this version so it's not like he's breaking the game here; taotao even said that he thinks he'd be doing even better with the original dike compared to this new version.

I think an interesting effect of removing all coastally accessible islands is that you actually disincentivized coastal exploration and development in the mid term until it was possible to burst down to Astro. Unfortunately following PB5, RtR was altered to remove a block on bulbing Astro. I feel that making Astro a good bulb target like in this game may have actually cut down on a lot of choice: not a comment on a map, but rather a flaw with the mod. I know other people feel differently, because in PB5 the inability to get to Galleons on a true beeline is what limited scooter and Dazed to the dying moose snake. It's arguable that this is an issue with CIV because of the inflexibility of the naval design. Not like there is much for it without massive redesign.

Another point: MoM and Taj OP again?

[Mardoc]

It's arguable that this is an issue with CIV because of the inflexibility of the naval design. Not like there is much for it without massive redesign.

Personally I think this is it. Navy is so binary that it's either overpowered or underpowered, depending on the map, but there's not a lot of room for just right or evened out by other factors.

It doesn't help that there's no real tradeoff - ships are just straight better with more tech.

Another point: MoM and Taj OP again?

Seems like being ahead in the tech tree at Nationalism is as much symptom as cause of winning.

[GermanJoey]

Another point: MoM and Taj OP again?

Man, the MoM is still broken as all hell and always has been. I just don't get why RtR or ToW has never even tried to touch this thing. At the very least make it obsolete!

And yeah, regarding the Taj, Mardoc has it: Nationalism is just a must-beeline tech now.

[mackoti]

Another point: MoM and Taj OP again?

Man, the MoM is still broken as all hell and always has been. I just don't get why RtR or ToW has never even tried to touch this thing. At the very least make it obsolete!

And yeah, regarding the Taj, Mardoc has it: Nationalism is just a must-beeline tech now.

How many games were won by the guys which build MOM?Not so many...Is a wonder which request alot of resource and planning for it time and most of the time ends up not worth.For example in tao/mack case if we werent building MoM would had conquered DZ 10-12 faster and more likely would had rolled over CH as well but oh well.You build MOM and after waiit 20-30 maybe even more till you get first GA .Nationalism I dont see a problem with it now is worth bellening it even you loose the race for taj , so yeah became o more key tech perhaps second as importance afetr BW,still i belive if land is green and with flatland(Not like pb31) i think communist is more powerfull.

Taj-well you need some wonders and some planning to make difference between players.

[GermanJoey]

Another point: MoM and Taj OP again?

Man, the MoM is still broken as all hell and always has been. I just don't get why RtR or ToW has never even tried to touch this thing. At the very least make it obsolete!

And yeah, regarding the Taj, Mardoc has it: Nationalism is just a must-beeline tech now.

How many games were won by the guys which build MOM?Not so many...Is a wonder which request alot of resource and planning for it time and most of the time ends up not worth.For example in tao/mack case if we werent building MoM would had conquered DZ 10-12 faster and more likely would had rolled over CH as well but oh well.You build MOM and after waiit 20-30 maybe even more till you get first GA .Nationalism I dont see a problem with it now is worth bellening it even you loose the race for taj , so yeah became o more key tech perhaps second as importance afetr BW,still i belive if land is green and with flatland(Not like pb31) i think communist is more powerfull.

Taj-well you need some wonders and some planning to make difference between players.

The payoff for the MoM isn't as fast as some other wonders but the total payoff can be crazy huge in total. If that's all there was to it, it wouldn't drive me so crazy. It would just be a costly but very good wonder. But, for me, the two really frustrating things about it are a.) when someone else conquers it and/or b.) when it affects the Industrial/Modern era. Why should a wonder built by a third party 150 turns prior affect a space race? It's completely ridiculous. There's no other wonder that's in any way similar. That's why I think it should obsolete at like, I don't know, Scientific Method at least. There's like 3 and a half other wonders that obsolete at that tech, why not the MoM too?

some games the MoM was a big deal in, off the top of my head:

PB18: TBS conquered it off Dazed, ended up throwing IIRC three 12-Turn GAs using it, which is an extra GA and a half. If he doesn't have the MoM I don't think he even gets close to his CV.
PB20: SevenSpirits got it, and was almost able to topple the mighty Charlemange despite him getting like every single other wonder plus being ToW Pro...
PB22: You built it but then Gavagai conquered it and its presence ended up massively influencing the space race of how that game finished.
PB29: Haram got it and was able to slingshot his way into his Pro trait's awakening.
PB32: Jowy built it and lost it to the game-leader before he even used it.

In this game, you can say in hindsight maybe taotao shoulda done this, shoulda done that, but it's really hard to say if it woulda worked out better since you don't how others would have reacted. (e.g. you don't know how Serdoa woulda reacted to an earlier attempt to conquer CH or REM) Also, the things taotao did do seem to have worked out too? MoM helped you guys get the Taj and quick Astro, quick Astro helped you get all those island cities and still conquer CH in the end (plus harass half the map), and more recently the MoM helped taotao catch back up to REM after REM had a huge tech lead. And of course there's the fear that someone else gets the MoM...

[mackoti]

Another point: MoM and Taj OP again?

Man, the MoM is still broken as all hell and always has been. I just don't get why RtR or ToW has never even tried to touch this thing. At the very least make it obsolete!

And yeah, regarding the Taj, Mardoc has it: Nationalism is just a must-beeline tech now.

How many games were won by the guys which build MOM?Not so many...Is a wonder which request alot of resource and planning for it time and most of the time ends up not worth.For example in tao/mack case if we werent building MoM would had conquered DZ 10-12 faster and more likely would had rolled over CH as well but oh well.You build MOM and after waiit 20-30 maybe even more till you get first GA .Nationalism I dont see a problem with it now is worth bellening it even you loose the race for taj , so yeah became o more key tech perhaps second as importance afetr BW,still i belive if land is green and with flatland(Not like pb31) i think communist is more powerfull.

Taj-well you need some wonders and some planning to make difference between players.

The payoff for the MoM isn't as fast as some other wonders but the total payoff can be crazy huge in total. If that's all there was to it, it wouldn't drive me so crazy. It would just be a costly but very good wonder. But, for me, the two really frustrating things about it are a.) when someone else conquers it and/or b.) when it affects the Industrial/Modern era. Why should a wonder built by a third party 150 turns prior affect a space race? It's completely ridiculous. There's no other wonder that's in any way similar. That's why I think it should obsolete at like, I don't know, Scientific Method at least. There's like 3 and a half other wonders that obsolete at that tech, why not the MoM too?

some games the MoM was a big deal in, off the top of my head:

PB18: TBS conquered it off Dazed, ended up throwing IIRC three 12-Turn GAs using it, which is an extra GA and a half. If he doesn't have the MoM I don't think he even gets close to his CV.
PB20: SevenSpirits got it, and was almost able to topple the mighty Charlemange despite him getting like every single other wonder plus being ToW Pro...
PB22: You built it but then Gavagai conquered it and its presence ended up massively influencing the space race of how that game finished.
PB29: Haram got it and was able to slingshot his way into his Pro trait's awakening.
PB32: Jowy built it and lost it to the game-leader before he even used it.

In this game, you can say in hindsight maybe taotao shoulda done this, shoulda done that, but it's really hard to say if it woulda worked out better since you don't how others would have reacted. (e.g. you don't know how Serdoa woulda reacted to an earlier attempt to conquer CH or REM) Also, the things taotao did do seem to have worked out too? MoM helped you guys get the Taj and quick Astro, quick Astro helped you get all those island cities and still conquer CH in the end (plus harass half the map), and more recently the MoM helped taotao catch back up to REM after REM had a huge tech lead. And of course there's the fear that someone else gets the MoM...

Well in the end you gave me just a tie of someone for the winning so not a single winner, second about how serdoa would had reacted, I can tell you all serdoa army was some archers so would had no time to react, at the proposed atach on CH, and yes we would had get in that plan astro maybe 8-10 turns latter(at maximum) but with all CH land the colonization would have been way faster and latter we would not have the CH atack wich dragged TAo at least 20 turns back.

Jowy building it realy shows what i said that has a huge cost and you can get no bennefit this actualy sustain my point of view is not against, if he would gone for constroction and get a stack of 20 cats he could have easily deter Ichabod.

[The Black Sword]

IIRC, tao went for Currency before Calendar here? That speaks against MoM being OP. Of course it is probably the best wonder in the game to conquer but it's not the only way neighbours influence the game.

MoM+Taj should be OP, but it's up to everyone else to make sure the MoM winner doesn't get Taj.

I think Nationhood with both Taj and the New Merc is too good, though I can't remember the other options in this mod version.

And IMO taotao is OP too.

[mackoti]

IIRC, tao went for Currency before Calendar here? That speaks against MoM being OP. Of course it is probably the best wonder in the game to conquer but it's not the only way neighbours influence the game.

MoM+Taj should be OP, but it's up to everyone else to make sure the MoM winner doesn't get Taj.

I think Nationhood with both Taj and the New Merc is too good, though I can't remember the other options in this mod version.

And IMO taotao is OP too.

In this version you have as well a very powerfull civic at emancipation which is at banking so there is a big choise which one to get first and mercantilism is at liberalism so i think is prety good version in my opinion, all the bonuses are in diferent places.

And more than that even mercantilism would be at nationalism would be good ...Because if we both are in race for nationalim and taj, if i loose taj at acoinflip or at 1 turn I still have mercantilism which in my opinion is still a bigger prize then Taj and you dont need to be first to get the bonus.We have for example both taj and mercantilism in pb31 and seem like that wasnt a win buton .

So i realy thing this version of the mod is realy good having the bonus in all kind of places.Perhaps moving mercantilism to replaceble parts would solve the problem, this way to get the bonus you have to research all ramification of twch tree.