[SPOILER] PB37: Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the most aggressive of them all?

[mackoti]

Yeah i think optics and gunpowder should be mandatory for privateers.But even this way you  destroy the reward for a good planning and postpone even more the time for an atack.Evreyone will go for privateers first and will build loads of them and the one which want to atack will be in huge disvantage because he will need good hiters, privaters and galeons while  for the difender just mass privateers and a very decent unit in musket.

[Mr. Cairo]

The problem I see is that you might create a game of rock-paper-scissors in which one player (the defender) gets to see what the other is going to play first. You see me beelining Astro and you go for Privateers. I go for Privateers and you get Caravels. In either case the "counter" is cheaper and easier to get than what it's countering. The only way to win is not to play. I can see this just neutering all naval play between Optics and Combustion.

But in reality, no-one beelines Astro so they can kill Caravels with Galleons. It's the fact that Galleons defeat lower tech naval units AND carry land units across the ocean that makes them so powerful.

How about, in addition to any changes with Caravels/Privateers, to give Galleys an extra movement point and the ability to cross ocean at Optics? That way naval warfare can actually be interesting before Galleons.

Of course, in a perfect world I'd just want to add another 6-8 naval units spread out throughout the medieval/renaissance/industrial eras, to make the jumps in power levels not so drastic.

[OT4E]

Caravels could counter galleons but they lack speed. May be if you can give galleons just 3 movements before chemistry or let everyone build corracks instead of carravels or even both it could make naval warfare more interesting.

[Krill]

The question regarding counters to galleons hinges on the amount of tech needed to get a counter that is hammer efficient to build, caravels can counter but are hammer inefficient.

Right now privateers cost as much tech as frigates, but how much less tech would be needed for them to be viable, but still leave open a window for a tech leader to get galleons and do something? Remember that Astro is the perfect double bulb target, and anything that needs Gunpowder and Guilds costs 4k beakers that can't be bulbed. If privateers needed compass and GP, they cost slightly less tech to unlock but have no offensive power if caravels are buffed.

[OT4E]

3 movement galleons are not that scary but they can still do good job for their owner. Also caravels are 3/4 and have same hammer cost ratio. So they can make some serious obstacles but not completely remove the threat of being invaded from sea.

Also if you let caravels transfer units you make astro beelining less attractive but still doable

[Bacchus]

The problem I see is that you might create a game of rock-paper-scissors in which one player (the defender) gets to see what the other is going to play first. You see me beelining Astro and you go for Privateers. I go for Privateers and you get Caravels. In either case the "counter" is cheaper and easier to get than what it's countering.

Chariots are cheaper than axes, pikes are cheaper than knights, axes are cheaper than swords, none of this is really a problem. Especially in naval affairs, attacker has the advantage of concentration of force at the location of his choice. It's not enough to just "get privateers", you have to get them at the right place at the right time. There is an added problem that assymetry in production is really exarcebated at sea -- 5 ports vs 4 is a difference of 25%, on land that would be like having 25 cities versus 20. Except that if you are on 20 total cities vs 25 opponents, you are clearly behind and deserve to lose, whereas being at 4 ports vs 5 on a particular naval theater is largely a matter of chance. An Astro beeline allows to really abuse these random assymetries, so it's not a problem at all for the defender to have access to effective counters.

[mackoti]

The problem I see is that you might create a game of rock-paper-scissors in which one player (the defender) gets to see what the other is going to play first. You see me beelining Astro and you go for Privateers. I go for Privateers and you get Caravels. In either case the "counter" is cheaper and easier to get than what it's countering.

Chariots are cheaper than axes, pikes are cheaper than knights, axes are cheaper than swords, none of this is really a problem. Especially in naval affairs, attacker has the advantage of concentration of force at the location of his choice. It's not enough to just "get privateers", you have to get them at the right place at the right time. There is an added problem that assymetry in production is really exarcebated at sea -- 5 ports vs 4 is a difference of 25%, on land that would be like having 25 cities versus 20. Except that if you are on 20 total cities vs 25 opponents, you are clearly behind and deserve to lose, whereas being at 4 ports vs 5 on a particular naval theater is largely a matter of chance. An Astro beeline allows to really abuse these random assymetries, so it's not a problem at all for the defender to have access to effective counters.

yeah bit you have units which have great odds against those (spears,axes or maces) and the kiling is usualy 1 at 1 if you kill a full galeon is 1 at 4.I play for a very long time at RB and abusing galeons i think  realy never happend(well happened in game were i got them and the other were clueless, was a medi game i think), because always is a FFA and if you dont make land gains even you are just losing. Oh heck in game Seven got those very fast and in respons i got 50 knigs  and all what they got was an island from  me.So yeah i still want to see galeaon abuse in a serious game.

[Bacchus]

It really depends on the map, I agree that this hasn't been a major issue, but I think Krill started the discussion in the spirit of "one of the last kinks to iron out". Incidentally, privateers being essentially useless is also a sad feature of the game, so if we can fix both, that's a plus. But not exactly a requirement, RtR is very playable as is.

[pindicator]

I know we've had some games where caravels were able to counter/hold off an opponent that got to astronomy first. When scooter and I did it in pb8 I think the biggest challenge was the mobility advantage that galleons held.

[Krill]

Bringing privateers forward to gunpowder and optics definitely does not alter the window for galleons. An astro rush has a double bulb of astro which means compared to gunpowder it has a 4k beaker lead. The problem is that you have to get both GS but that isn't affecting the tech pace so much as city development and how to get into caste.

There aren't any changes to caravels, that are relevant to fighting galleons so none of that changes either. The only effects that moving privateers forward would have is that there is a choice in how to counter the astro beeline.

The tactics around how to use and stack units are also more complex with three unit types rather than forcing production of a single unit type.

All that said, galleons actually have a greater hammer cost to unit transport than galleys, so should galleons be boosted to carry 4 units?