Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[Bacchus]

So yeah, if that is defined as rationing so be it, but private health care still exists in the UK.

Have you seen how much a private ultrasound costs these days in the UK? It's not that I particularly want to discredit the NHS, I'm just saying it's not a great example of a well functioning system. I mean, healthcare is one thing that Russians in the UK actually return to Russia for -- paid or free, it's miles better for most conditions. To stay with abdominal ultrasound, you can get it in a modern clinic for 25 pounds in central Moscow, anywhere in the UK it's 120+. And in the free system, your conditions will actually get diagnosed and you'll get treatment, not be given a paracetamol and told to come back when you are REALLY in trouble. I imagine some of it is just the British stiff upper lip culture (no menstruation for three months? Well, were you aiming for children? No? So what's the problem then?), but still.

And to reiterate, once you convince the NHS that you are really in trouble, the care is good and reasonably prompt, as far as I understand, I thankfully haven't had a close encounter. But on anything up to and including hernias, non-incapacitating autoimmune diseases, minor traumas, infections and gangrenes it's a complete mess.

[Krill]

So yeah, if that is defined as rationing so be it, but private health care still exists in the UK.

Have you seen how much a private ultrasound costs these days in the UK? It's not that I particularly want to discredit the NHS, I'm just saying it's not a great example of a well functioning system. I mean, healthcare is one thing that Russians in the UK actually return to Russia for -- paid or free, it's miles better for most conditions. To stay with abdominal ultrasound, you can get it in a modern clinic for 25 pounds in central Moscow, anywhere in the UK it's 120+. And in the free system, your conditions will actually get diagnosed and you'll get treatment, not be given a paracetamol and told to come back when you are REALLY in trouble. I imagine some of it is just the British stiff upper lip culture (no menstruation for three months? Well, were you aiming for children? No? So what's the problem then?), but still.

And to reiterate, once you convince the NHS that you are really in trouble, the care is good and reasonably prompt, as far as I understand, I thankfully haven't had a close encounter. But on anything up to and including hernias, non-incapacitating autoimmune diseases, minor traumas, infections and gangrenes it's a complete mess.

I have an excess on my policy of less than that, but I agree that prices will vary between countries and economies due to alternate allocation of resources and, frankly, if they can make money on a dumb population why shouldn't they?

I disagree with your edit on specific points, not on generalities. Gangrene is admission and IV antibiotics with assessment for amputation, discharge via district nursing. Infections involve screening for sepsis, and if it can be treated in the community it will be treated. Treating minor infections that don't need antibiotics with rest and paracetamol is the right course of action, not neglect and sign of a poor system. Expectations of immediate treatment are an example of unreasonable expectation.

Minor treatment for broken arm? Plaster cast and rest unless need surgical intervention.

All that is accessible through A&E. Which is where the problems come from...

[SevenSpirits]

Unions are a bad solution to the real problem of disparate power between large organizations and their replaceable employees.

As a US programmer, I have worked only in a non-unionized industry. It was fine. It was great. I'm happy there wasn't a union. I wish everyone had the same experience as me. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an easy way to accomplish that for many kinds of jobs. The reason it worked well for me and my peers is that there are plenty of excellent software jobs and not enough people to fill them all. If something is going badly, you just quit and find work at some other company. This dynamic causes companies to try to be good places to work, in addition to causing employees to try to be good employees (since they could similarly get fired).

My understanding is that the biggest issue is when people are put into a seriously bad life situation if they get fired. This gives their employer far too much power. Efforts to limit this power via minimum wages and other regulations can't patch the whole problem, and create additional bureaucracy, and I think they are often misguided. (Far too many regulations are designed in opposition to the free markets instead of in harmony with it, and they function poorly as a result.) Unions fit in this category too - I don't think they're a great solution. Certainly stuff like this can be a stopgap - despite being economically inefficient at face, putting workers in stable situations can have immense value to those workers. (And so I can't claim that unions have been a net negative, though I think we can do better.)

Another thing that reduces employee power is when lots of people want the job. Various art fields are like this. What are you going to do, tell some fraction of people that they aren't allowed to be artists? It's not like they're without other options. Why not let them do art for peanuts if that's what they want to do?

I think a basic income would help give employees more power, and that's why I support that. I suspect there are also other policies that could be helpful to the power dynamic that aren't the typical blunt-force "you're not allowed to do X" regulation we see used.

I think decoupling health insurance from employment (which is an insane thing we have in the US) would also help a ton.

I think it's possible that giving monetary incentives to terminate employment relationships would help employees (or maybe employers) stuck with a bad deal into changing the situation towards something more efficient. Heck, that's basically the opposite of what unions do.

[Japper007]

You should back up and think over this again: it worked for Bill and Obama, so it's not actually a terrible strategy. They actually know how to win the presidential elections in the US, Trump however turned out better at centralising than the DNC's latest choice.

Since the overwhelming majority of Americans supports progressive policies[1] the Democrats are fundamentally doing something wrong with appealing to the actual left-wing/progressives. Otherwise they'd win every election in a landslide, which is just not the case. There is a large block of people who don't vote, and the numbers line up with the majority of them also being progressives that don't feel like either party serves their agenda. This is where the whole "Giant Douche or Turd Sandwhich" thing comes from.

1.http://prospect.org/article/most-americans-are-liberal-even-if-they-don%E2%80%99t-know-it

[Bacchus]

Hilariously, most of the questions cited there have nothing to do with progressivism. Yes, conservatives believe poverty is a bad thing, it's precisely why they DON'T vote Democrat. Yes, the influence of money is atrocious and brazen, and that's a good reason to vote against Clinton -- which is why Trump put that concern right at the centre of his campaigning.

Overall, most questions are so vague that two people answering 'yes' can have nearly opposite things in mind. Take the 'some corporations don't pay their fair share of tax' question -- any Trumper would be a massive 'yes' on this question, because he has Amazon in mind. Certainly, progressives can find some common ground with those suspicious of the globalist financial system, as noted by a meme upthread, but it hardly makes Nazis Liberal. Or maybe it does, I don't even know these days.

[ipecac]

Seemed like a weird controversy to me, but then anything about race is, as it doesn't exist.

This is ignorance of science. Go write an email to 23andMe telling them their ancestry tests are worthless because 'race doesn't exist'.

[ipecac]

but it hardly makes Nazis Liberal. Or maybe it does, I don't even know these days.

Stay tuned for the latest NPC update for Nazi screeching.

[Japper007]

Haha the NPC meme, maybe the guy who has been parroting every retarded Alt-Right talking point/meme like clockwork for the past few weeks should consider the glass house he is standing in...

But then expecting self-awareness from the Alt-Right is futile, it's also why they can't meme.

[ipecac]

Haha the NPC meme, maybe the guy who has been parroting every retarded Alt-Right talking point/meme like clockwork for the past few weeks should consider the glass house he is standing in...

But then expecting self-awareness from the Alt-Right is futile, it's also why they can't meme.

'Race doesn't exist', he chants, 'also I'm actually thinking for myself'.

[Japper007]

Haha the NPC meme, maybe the guy who has been parroting every retarded Alt-Right talking point/meme like clockwork for the past few weeks should consider the glass house he is standing in...

But then expecting self-awareness from the Alt-Right is futile, it's also why they can't meme.

'Race doesn't exist', he chants, 'also I'm actually thinking for myself'.

I have opposed several typical Leftist ideas in this very thread, like affirmative action. Thinking someone must not think for themselves because they oppose your moronic ideology is exactly the preprogrammed thinking expected out of an NPC. You can't think for yourself so you project that on me. Sad.