[SPOILERS] naufragar, Charriu, and Zalson's Threepenny Opera

[Charriu]

Well the Mining from England is ok and starting on water, Fishing is not a total waste. But on the other hand there's no seafood in our BFC, so Fishing has not that much value to us. We want it eventually as there is more coastlines under the fog to the N and S, but we don't need it right now. England's UU and UB are a bit too late. So yeah re-rolling England sounds alright.
Both leaders look ok to me. Like you said learning to play with Phi is good. But honestly I would go with Cre/Exp. Cre is a good trait. I know I ranked it lower in my last ranking, but that was because I wanted to avoid Cre like you want to avoid Imp. The culture bonus and library building bonus will be great. The fact that we have a forest ivory tile in our 1st ring and the only good (3) food tiles in our 2nd ring, makes Exp much more attractive. The production bonuses on the buildings don't hurt either. My first thought for a sim with Exp would be to go worker->worker->warrior making the most out of the trait and improving pig->rice.
I think I would go with Cre/Exp in this game and re-roll England hoping for something with either Agriculture and/or Hunting

FYI I'm GMT +2.

[Charriu]

Oh and I would send the scout 1SW 1SE and then explore S, SE,E, NE, N. Second city could go to the E sharing the pig.

[naufragar]

I don't think I'm as keen on Sury as you, and I keep going back and forth. I really dislike Exp, but that's not what's making me waffle. I'm trying to think about Cre. I like it a lot, but I do think it's a trait that is unnecessary (as in, plenty of people figure out ways to pop borders without it. I think almost every city I planted in pb38 was food-adjacent, and without food sharing, even with Cre you still have to plant food-adjacent). That said, Krill gave us the map dimensions, and there are 169 land tiles per player. This would mean that each capitol is 13 tiles apart, but Big & Small rolls islands, so we might be very tight. (A funny, unintended side-effect of Cre is that it pisses one's neighbors off, who think you're taking more land than you should.) Creative also screws us if we are forced to play a Mysticism civ. At this point I'm just rambling, and I keep writing stuff and deleting it. At the end of the day, I don't think we're screwed if we play Sury, so let's bite the bullet.


Mardoc, please lock in Suryavarman. Please re-roll England.

[naufragar]

But I'll have to sim to see if that speed advantage (3 turns over non-Exp) actually translates to anything.

I am, of course, an idiot. It's a 1 turn advantage over non-Exp. Because Exp sucks. I had momentarily forgotten. Welp.

Damn it. Sury is really, really weak. I wouldn't try to rescind our pick; a lock is, after all, a lock. We're just going to have to twist Creative into every shape we need.

I made up a sandbox and then promptly broke it trying to edit various civs in notepad. It won't let me play on it anymore , so I'm going to wait until civ picks come through.

[Krill]

A lock is only a lock until the next reroll is given out, you can still change your mind.

[naufragar]

I've cooled down sufficiently that I'm at peace with the choice. Thanks for the option. I'm going to use this as a make it work moment.   (And I'm going to try to stop making mental math errors...)

Besides using uncomfortable traits as a learning experience, I'm currently on the "Cre is really good" pendulum swing. Who knows where I'll be in the morning. Before I locked it, I made a list of all the traits I'd rate lower than Cre/Exp. There were many. There was a very real chance that on the second round I wouldn't pull anything I rated higher than Cre/Exp (something like 30%, disregarding that opponents would also be picking good stuff). So at the end of the day, I stand by the pick. Charriu, we'll just have to be clever about whipping workers and building markets to get the most out of it. And we need to figure out who we can bully with our culture.  

[Charriu]

Sorry, that I pushed you into a decision that made you uncomfortable. To make Exp a bit more bearable for you. We are starting on the water and will surely see some seafood, so the Exp bonus for work boats gets a bit of use, too. Also looking at the map I see more river tiles for any city directly North, East and South, so maybe markets will get more use. So in the long run it may save you more hammers in total then Imp.
Don't think about Cre as an opporunity to settle cities without food in their 1st ring. Think about the hammers you save by not building missionaries, barracks and/or monuments etc. It also secures your borders faster.

[naufragar]

Sorry, that I pushed you into a decision that made you uncomfortable.

No push at all! In my first response after picks were given, I had said "I think I really like Survy." I deleted the "really" as the pendulum swung the other way.    I was more shocked and appalled that I had thought Exp had a three turn worker advantage when it does not, so part of my vehemence was directed at Sury to blame him for my own mistake. You're absolutely right that the water makes Exp better. Workboats and harbors especially. Plus we see a whole lot of rivers in the area, so we'll probably be doing more cottaging than usual so markets will get their day.

I didn't sim any more after I broke the world builder save somehow, so we should test out worker-worker openings, but I doubt they'll be the fastest. To make the most of Exp, we need to increase the hammers part of our foodhammers, which we can't do at size 1. We need mines, chops, or whips. I don't think we'll ever be happy chopping workers, since you're just trading early worker turns for later worker turns. ("But naufragar! What about your pb38 opening? " Yes, I know. I'm a hypocrite.) So my gut says we don't want to really crank out workers until after bronze working.

The following isn't from a sim; it's from me staring at the screenshot last night and doing mental math, so beware.   I think if we go worker-warrior, the warrior completes and the city grows on turn 16, which is so neat and tidy that I feel compelled to follow that line of play for a bit to see where it leads. A further problem with the two worker opening is that we run out of stuff for them to do. Even with the one, I'm very nervous that we're going to have idle first worker turns. This start needs two food techs and bronze working, and it's hard to see how we get that in time. (But, by God, we are going to make it work. I'm not giving up my 1 turn worker advantage just because our worker production outpaces our tech.   )

You are spot on about Cre. Plus there is a nice library bonus, which I seem to always forget because it's not my beautiful 100% multiplier.  

[Charriu]

You are correct. Assuming you work the flood plain or rice after the worker and the worker goes improving the pig you grow on T16 and the warrior is done in T15. I've setup my crazy spreadsheet from PB40 for you and send you an invite.

[naufragar]

Charriu, this thing is beautiful.

I can't promise if I'll be able to contribute the same amount of industry, but holy smokes. Let's win this game.