What sort of CIV games do you prefer to play?

[Krill]

Gaspar mentioned in a private thread that he doesn't ever want to play another pitboss game, for various reasons. And I started wondering, who here prefers to play PBEMs, and who prefers to play pitboss games, and why they prefer that?

[novice]

I can see the appeal of pitboss. It's just not very compatible with workplace firewalls...

[Mardoc]

PBEM, definitely. I'm in one pitboss, but I'm sure I couldn't be without my teammates.

I'm not sure if it's the format, or the people who prefer it, but PBEMs are much more forgiving of occasional gaps in play. I can plan a vacation, or say yes when invited out to dinner with my coworkers, or go to bed early with a headache, and not worry about missing my PBEM turn. Obviously it's not something you want to make a habit of, but it's nice to have that insurance that the turn will wait. And it's nice to have the default of wait, rather than having to find time exactly when I'm busy to post and ask for a pause.

Also, I like being able to undo misclicks, but that's relatively minor.

[Speaker]

I like games with no turn timer or turn limit.

[slowcheetah]

PBEMs for me, although thats partially due to the way we play the different formats here.

PBEM's tend to be
-Small (4 or 5 players)
-Quick speed

Pitbosses tend to be
-Larger (10-12 players)
-Normal Speed

The difference in player number (often) leads to a quicker turnround in PBEM saves, and frankly I tend to be a little bit impatient with normal speed games. The lack of need for double move rules also appeal, they're a hassle to think about and seem to lead to controversy more often than not. Admittedly games like PB5 have shown pitbosses can work with 'gentlemans' double move rules but so far that's been the exception.

[Twinkletoes89]

PBEMs are definitely the most convenient for me, but I like all three at different times depending on what kind of game I#d like to play

[Gaspar]

For completeness sake, here's the original exchange. I edited the beginning slightly to remove any potential for spoilage - not that it remotely matters in context.

Gaspar: Yeah, add another reason to the pile of me never playing another pitboss.

Other person: I really think playing pitboss is worth it. If nothing else - for normal speed. I dislike how much quick speed changes a game of civ, and normal speed PBEMs are just not fast enough unless you get them going at a fast rate. I also like having more than 5 players in a game, as it really does change how you play. Although, given your previous pitboss experience, I can see how you might feel that way.

Gaspar: I'd agree with 1 out of 3 - there's no question if you want more than 5-6 players, Pitboss is the only way to go. And larger playing fields definitely add a layer of strategy that the smaller PBEM fields can't match - for one, going after a wonder or a first-to bonus is a *much* bigger risk in a field of 10-12 players, and that changes the valuation of traits, etc.

The other two points - eh. I agree that quick speed has a few huge drawbacks, the biggest of which is that basically once you get to T75 or so, the eras just start flying by so fast that you end up with this weird game where you spend ages in ancient/classical era combat then a slight amount of time in medieval... and the next thing you know everyone has Infantry and you're in the age of Sirian Doctrine. Normal has serious downsides though - the main one being the first 50 turns are a gigantic snorefest and the game doesn't *really* get rolling until T100 or so. That's fine in SP, where you bang those first 100 turns in no time but in MP... There's really no reason we can't play PBEMs on normal, we just don't very often. Its more a choice that getting "into the game" sooner is worth the tradeoff of an accelerated midgame. I don't know if its the right choice, but its the one we make.

And that leads to me which I believe is the biggest drawback of Pitboss. We've gotten very good at running PBEMs around here, to the point where a turn a day in the first 75-100 turns is a slow game. You usually are on T50 or so within a month and the first 20 turns rarely take more than 10 days. The larger playing fields of Pitboss accompanied by a lower sense of urgency mean you basically spend the better part of two months doing little other than scout moves and executing an early game micro plan you devised on the second day. Its really boring, IMO.

I mean, I just started following Pitboss 8 a little over a week ago and it appears it is at T70-ish after 2 months. When you add that to the other issues - stuff like accidentally clicking auto-explore and losing a couple workers like what happened to Ceiliazul in PB5 plus things like sunrise losing power for the 356093469th time, etc, etc... to me its not worth it. I certainly don't mean to knock anyone who enjoys it, but for me the PBEM is just a vastly more fun format.

I actually don't have any issues with what Mardoc mentioned in a PBEM - I always play with at least one teammate because I find it to be a lot more fun that way, so RL issues getting in the way wouldn't be an issue in either format, and I generally find that people are pretty understanding in either format if you're normally good about playing your turn. Obviously if you're a serial holder-upper you're going to piss everyone off in either format, but if you generally PYFT I think PB'ers or PBEM'ers will understand RL issues popping up from time to time even if you don't have teammates. I also don't think the oft-mentioned double move issues in PB are really a big deal - if everyone playing is a grown-up you're fine either way. I mean that's really the crux of any issues in these games, if everyone remembers we're mostly friends here and we're playing for fun first, most of the negative stuff doesn't get in the way. So its really a matter of size vs. pace - PB nice for bigger games, PBEM nice for quicker games.

[scooter]

The Other Person checking in - the discussion popped up in my thread. By the way Gaspar, I didn't mind the "hijack" at all - it's a nice and relevant discussion. Was going to respond to you when I got a few minutes, but I'll do that here now that it has its own thread.

Anyways, I wanted to expand on the number of players thing, because I think it's really a massive deal. Part of the flaw of PBEM is not just that less players is less fun, but less players twists the game too much. I've played/followed SO many PBEMs that are 5 player games, and 2 players fight each other 30T in. Then another player just screws up his opening and overall doesn't play too well - maybe RL gets hectic and he starts phoning in the turns. It's pretty common to get to 1AD, and the game is already a 2-3 player race. Also, it's much harder to stop a runaway, which maximizes the need to play the opening flawlessly. It's harder to beat the leader because there's fewer players to stop a potential runaway. A runaway in a 10 player Pitboss might have 4 players way behind, but that still leaves 5 players that can work to undermine the guy blowing everybody away. A runaway in a 5 player PBEM where 2 players are way behind and a 3rd is vaguely relevant doesn't leave you much to work with to stop the leader. Whoever builds the best sandcastle with minimal military usually wins.

A bigger game requires you to play the longer game. A 5 player PBEM requires you to micro well, build minimum military, and avoid conflict for the first 100T, then see if you can beat the 1 or 2 people still in contention. It's been done to death, and it's just not a very interesting way to play anymore. Take PBEM43 as an example. That boasted a roster of Seven, novice, mackoti, Serdoa, and Nicolae. IMO that was the strongest lineup we'd seen in a PBEM up to that point. What happened? Nicolae rushed novice, effectively putting both of them way behind. Mackoti dropped out, handing it to his cousin who eventually disappeared. The game was called when the players basically felt it was down to Seven vs Serdoa 70T or so into the game. I'm not 100% sure if I'm even being accurate, because the game ended with such a whimper that it wasn't even clear to me what happened . Point is, if there's 5-6 more players in that game, that doesn't happen, and that game is definitely not over. Another example might be PBEM32. Lewwyn and Brian Shanahan were way behind and Commodore got crippled by a war. I was in 2nd, but I wasn't nearly close enough to Serdoa's Pyramids runaway, and there just wasn't enough players in contention to help hold Serdoa in check, so the game was inevitable. It went off the rails for other reasons, but the game was basically wrapped up in a lot of ways. That doesn't happen if it's a 10 player Pitboss. It's also near impossible to play on an unbalanced map with a 5 player PBEM, but it's very possible in a 10 player PB because there's enough players in the game to naturally counteract the imbalances enough to make the game competitive.

On pace - I'm playing a normal speed PBEM and normal speed PB right now, and the Pitboss game pace feels much, much better. I'm sort of struggling to keep interest in the PBEM, and I'm having a ton of fun with the Pitboss. There's other factors besides game format, but the 5 player limiting is much more constrictive than just number of players. It changes the game entirely, and not in a good way IMO.

Ultimately it's a preference thing, and like Gaspar said, I don't mean to knock anyone who disagrees . I am just finding the bigger Pitboss to be much more enjoyable because a 5 player game artificially constrains the game a bit and limits the ways you can play. Part of my bias is my playstyle - my micro is not great, and I'm more geared towards macro/metagaming. That more or less means I'm probably going to do slightly better in a PB than a PBEM, so that does bias me a good bit.

[scooter]

Clarification: I know I'm REALLY cherry-picking examples in that post, so don't take those as "proof" or anything. Most of my favorite games to lurk have been PBEMs. However, I've played 1 full Pitboss and a bunch of full PBEMs, and that PB was probably my favorite game out of all of them - or it was way up there anyways.

[NobleHelium]

The main things for me are 1) sequential turns, because that's how the game was designed to be played, and 2) players of similar skill level. Neither of those things are present in a typical Pitboss.