Multi is very unbalanced even with mods : Critics and propositions

[Jojo_Fr]

Hello,

This critis is coupled with propositions so it is productive.

I have a solide experience of the Multiplayer in Civ IV BtS, of the solo playing in FFH2 and few of this mod (like Erebus in the Balance or Master of Mana) and a begineer experience of the Multiplayer in Erebus in the Balance, ETMP (a modmod for EitB) and Master of Mana.


My global opinion is : the changements bringed by the modsmods are often goods but totally ignore the worst overpowered things of the game. I doubt, wich is perhaps an arrogance, but I doubt that the creators of this mods have really got a true experience of competitive multiplayer game.

The mains overpowered things which i can affirm from now are :

1. The super speed of fast units and the divine Raider trait

- Totally overpowered : No defense vs that, specially with cavalery off course. Compare the situation with BtS, which is very balanced : In BtS the quickest land unit have speed 2, even the modern tank. With an additionnal, you can have speed 3, and with combat 5 (which is hard to obtain because experience is low to obtain compared to FFH2) you can have the commando promotion, to use ennemy road. As you see, it is exceptionnal units, nearly never use in multiplayer.

Only the sea unit can have speed move promotions, and only the air unit can move faster (but cannot take town...).

In FFH2 on any mod (I guess), you have :

- Cavalery who have movement 3, so they can come in your territory, pillage, and back. Or just take workers or town. You can bring this speed to 4 if you have just and adept with Body magic, which is easy to have with Civilization who have it (for exemple the Calabim).

- And the Hippis, have units who have all movement 4 naturally... and can up it to 5 with their world spell...

- When you have Horseback, you can buy promotion Move 2 for infantery and Move 3 and 4 for cavalery and I guess for Scout units...

- AND the worst joke of this picture, is the Raider traits. With that, there is no defense, you are just totally raped.
Just with 3 speed, a normal cavalery, you can move 6, or maybe just 5 squares. It is suffisant to take workers, pillages and back, or take a town off course. Absolutely nothing can be done, the worst is when the ennemy make this move at 00:00 of the timer. You have no time to move your units. So the ennemy can have doule movement, so double 6 speed... 12 squares movements.

- I really dont understand how the people who made modmod for take FFH2 to a multi experience could let this trait alive.

2. The magic hidding

- Furtivity of animals can be seen with recons units like hunter, so it is not too powerfull. But magic furtivity (I dont speak about Invisibility) can be see by very few units, and very late units, like the Elite marskmen (I dont remember his name).

- So, you have a faculty, which can be use with Assassin for exemple, or the Sidar Hero. You can use it when you want, you can move in the ennemy territory where you want (especially with Raider trait), you can kill workers, take city etc. So, to counter that, you need to be Empyrean (due to ratha unit who can see magic hidding), or have Elite marksmen (in each city approximately lol), or have the Perfect Sight promotion which need Combat 1, Combat 2, Increased 2, Increased View 2 and Perfect Sight (unpossible to have unless to have Vampire of very experienced unit).

3. The Kuriotates

Interesting civ but too strong due to Centaurs. So, Centaurs :

- Don't need any ressource, any bulding, but cost 60 and not 40 hammers (I guess). (Only the hippus can make this due to their ressource palace).

- Can have + 1 speed for free any turn, for i spall penaly of strenght the turn after (I dont remember how much, -1 perhaps). No other civ have this.

- The worst of all their advantages : they KEEP their bonus defense, fortifications etc. like the infantery units. Event the hippus have not this advantage. So, the Kuriotates, which are designed to be a protective, I mean, not an imperialistc civilization, have the most powerfull attacker/defender/pillager units of the Creation. They can defend any of their Three city with centaurs who can run into one of their in one turn.

4. The attack spells

- Here I am not sure of my critic, but I got the impression that there is magic attack who are too powerfull. And when I say powerful, I mean : no defense vs it.

- Take the exemple of fireball : You can use it with armurite fire bowman one per turn (two per turns if you have some mage but it is not easy !). The fireball have two movement speed, which it is ok and tactically intersting. The thinkgs I don't think balanced are : the fireball can pillages the improvements (if a squeleton is too stupid to do it, why a fireball could do that ?!), and can attack units without defense possible. I mean : you should be able to prevent a thing to come to you and attack you without defense. I'll explain proposition after.

- Now take another exemple : I have not enough experience of the game in multi in his aspect of magic combat, but I got impression that magic have a too big MASS area of attack. For exemple : the Slow spell of the Frost, make -1 to speed of all ennemy unit in any square adjacent I guess (or even on one only but it does matter). So, you can, with one, two adepts, totally block and army (except the scout or cavalery) on your territory, and you can do it every turn. There is magical defense, like the Dispell Spell, but it need Metamagic (a node rarely taked and I guess only the Armurites have it on their palace) and Canalization II (mages).

So it is too strong, and too hard to defend versus this. Things must be changed.

5. The assassin faculty

- The guard promotion is strong but nearly only the Bannor have it. So, usally you can lost all your adept/mages/priests with few units who totally destroy your strategy of attack, and let you very fragile. Something must do vs that.

6. The dived soul of the sidars

- Their faculty is too strong for attacking : it gives you 2 free movements and you can teleport after natural barrier. Moreover I dont think this feat well with the powerfull trait of sidar, the shades, and their defensive way of life.

7. The power of recon units

- Recons units are too strong in defensive purpose. They are quicker than infantery and have the same fortification bonus. It is not balanced and not their logical function (a hunter can defend land but not town).



The main critics are done now I need to propose !

1. The super speed of fast units and the divine Raider trait

- Replace Raider faculty (commando) by auto pillages (with a possibility to desactivate on each unit), +100 % of gold earned, and a small heal for each things destroyed (excluding roads, but if not possible, including road). By small healing, I mean : 1 point of heal per thing pillaged. If too hard to do, dont add this but replace by one free attack promotion for every units.

- All land units, recon units or mounted units, go from 3 or 4 speed, to 2 speed, as in civ IV. Centaurs lost their quickness faculty. Only the Hippus Keep 3 speed for their mounted units, and 4 speed with their world spell. Dont forget that, with an adept with hast, you can obtain speed 3 (moreover, with Arcane trait, adept have speed 2, which permit them to follow cavalery ).

- Last things : note that forester 2, elves or dwarven promotion you can walk with two speed in forest or hills. It looks normal and you have to cut forest or construct fortress on your hills if you cant to avoid that ! Note : I propose to let the elves be able to cut their forest for this strategic problem !

2. The magic hidding

- If the hunter or even scout I guess can see the animal hidding, the adept should be able to see it too. To see magic unit you need an adept, the adept (or mages etc.) have only two squares of view, it is not much and ennemy can sneak if your territory. So, just put and adept in your front city or in strategic position, and you could see hidding units (not invisible units which need the Perfect sight promotion or the Ratha, oro ther complicated way I dont mind in my opinion).

3. The Kuriotates

- Speed go to 2, as all units, and their off course lost their defensive bonus.

4. The attack spells

- Fireballs, meteors or others destructive non sentiant things must mot be able to pillage. Any canalysation I invocations must not be able too. But all canalysation two alive, golem or undead things, must be able (it is an intersting force of the invocator strategy).

- No more totally massive spells for all unbeff spell (buffing or protecting must be keeped massive I think). The slow effect for exemple, can only strike 6 units of the pack (The mechanism can work as I guess the Fireball works : it strike the six most powerfull units, or if it is possible six random units). So with that, with enought adept, you can block a part or totally a pack in your territory or in city. 6 units for every canlisation 1 or 2, and ALL units for any unbuff spell (canalisation 1 2 and 3) use by Archmages units, because archmages are hyperpowerfull and rare to obtain ! If it is too complicated to do, just give it to canalisation 3 spells.

5. The assassin faculty

- Create a new unit : the Guardsman (or another better name) for every civ, obtain with Code of Laws, which have Guard promotion for free, a strenght of 4 but 100 % vs the assassins. (Assassins have 5/3 + 1 poison). Cost of creation : 60 hammers. Barrack required.

6. The dived soul of the sidars

- Supress the divided soul faculty and replace it with Free Spiritual Guide and a special Evasion promotion. An evasion spell, who need one TWO turns to be cast. You use it and two turn after, you are teleport to capital (You cannot move when you have used the spells). Logical and perfect for the strategy of this civilization. You can go attack ennemy, same if you lost, you know you ll can flee.

- Moreover, ill add this but it just a proposition : any sidar units in their territory have free spiritual guide promotion, but lost it outside border (not the Divided Soul who always have it).

7. The power of recon units

- Give -1 of defensive point of all hunter units, -2 to all more advanced recon units (not assassin they have already 3 at defense), and -20 % city combat strenght to all recon unit (not in the recon unit who ever have this kind of malus). As it, they can defend city but archers/infantey still stay better (but slower to come).



Conclusion :

I would like to see a modder who applicate these modifications, and permit us to have a multigame more balanced on points really very important ! I have posted this message on CivFanatic too : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread...st12291508

And MP me if you want to play a game with any mods for FFH2 if you want.

[Tasunke]

a few thoughts on the game.

1. Training Yard building (no tech required) +1 happy w/ nationhood as normal

allows for Axes, Archers, and Horsemen.

part of this is to allow the martial lines more flexibility (like making Archers more worthwhile/ only needing the tech for access), but also to make Recon somewhat weaker. For axes, archers, or horse you need just one building. but for priests, mages, and hunters you need further separate building. Part of the benefit of Martial line I think

Now, for tier 3, (horse archers, champions, longbows) we could either have them tied to the old buildings (archery yard, barracks, stables), OR we could just tie them to the Training Yard as well. I would almost be inclined to do the latter to be honest.

Still, we shouldn't forget those builings ....

Old training yard essentially 'becomes' the Barracks in a sense. That sense is that it is the melee focus building.

Barracks gives +2 melee exp (and perhaps +10% heal rate for units in the city)

Archery Yard gives +2 archery exp and +10% defense in the city

Stables gives +2 mounted exp and +1 trade route.

Due to this functionality, I think T3 units should be buildable just with Training yard as well. Hell, maybe even T4 ^_^

After all, that should be the strength of the martial lines, which usually get outshined by summons and such. (yes I know, not for Orcs with their Ogres, but still )

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now, after all of that .... you have Horses at 60 hammers, archers at 45, axes at 45, and hunters with a separate building at 60.

Now it seems, to me, that all you need is to tweak the hunter so that it gives -20% city strength rather than -20% city attack. Maybe add Woodsman1 and Guerilla1 as compensation? having Hunters defend natural terrain more easily sounds interesting to me (from a flavor perspective). After all, I know balance is meant strictly for balance sake, but what is a game without flavor? If adding such promos to hunter is too strong, then perhaps we find something else. But I like that proposition. Primary question, Would this step on the toes of Fawns? Well, perhaps not, since Fawns have no city attack malus. One way to make up for that, imho, is to reduce FAWN specific defense by 1. So fawns are 4/3, which makes sense for a unit that will upgrade into 8/4.

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Now, I am uncertain about completely changing the moves paradigm, such as to make mounted units 2 move .. but I certainly think formation1 should be taken earlier, after combat1 rather than combat2. comes too late.

Also, perhaps simply Mobility1 should b harder to come by? Perhaps requiring combat 2 ...

This could possibly make aggressive too strong, which, while underutilized, does compound certain problems (such as shock1 fawns out of the gate with Volanna). Therefore I would propose that Aggressive doesn't give combat 1, but gives a separate promotion which gives +20% strength. Its an early game nerf, but it also helps hero units to become a bit more powerful than they could get without the trait. I think it makes sense and it makes it easier to mod/evaluate/play the game without unintended consequences.

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another thing I have thought, at least a bit, is to have Sinister give Flanking and Drill 1 rather than 1 attack, and for Dextrous to give mobility1, and perhaps soemthing else (like woodsman1) to archer units instead of 1 attack. The dextrous change couldn't happen unless archers were changed, but the sinister change could happen at any time.

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If we are talking true balance changes, then Lanun Economy and Vampire economy (and possibly Elven economy) need a bit of a nerf. Elves I can almost see because their workers are slower and it takes a bit longer to get running .... and another way to nerf them is to make everyone else a bit more adaptable (such as earlier forest chops, and better late game towns exlusively non elven or at least non-fol) ... and I have done some steps to address this in my own mod.

In my mod, everyone has access to the '+1 food' on coastline. Lanun still get a relatively extra food on oceans however. This makes Oceans at about Aristofarm level, at least before Shipyards. I feel that this is fair tbh, as it makes ocean actually desirable yet not completely OP because its quite similar to the average player's farm.

Lanun also get a bit of a nerf in that Pirate Coves are just 1/2/3/3/3 (yes I added two extra levels) until you start getting your techs rolling. By the late game, a Pirate Cove/ Pirate Town is about the same as it once was, (final level exactly the same late-game).

I would like to make some positive changes to the Lanun however. One such change is that Boarding parties went from 5 str to 6 str and can be built with Trianing yards instead of sea havens. This allows for a more land based lanun to be possible. Giving the Lanun a civtrait that gives bounty hunter to all naval units would also be nice, and adding boarding promotion to pirates to allow ship capture by pirates would be a nice and flavorful addition to their naval UU. In addition, I know Boarding parties start with amphibious, but allowing Sea Havens to give free amphibious to new units would really make you want to build your invasion force along the coast anyways ^_^ (and it would reintroduce the decision the creators wanted of choosing between invasion force and moar boats in your coastal cities). -> a few of these changes I haven't added yet but plan to. Would also make continent battles more interesting because Lanun are no longer a 'must have' for water ... instead they are a better choice for pure econ/water, but if you remotely have an idea of a different strat then you can at least 'compete' with the Lanun on a relatively fair footing.

I'd totally like to see a mod where you play Continents or Islands and not everyone picks Lanun


As far as elven economy, primarily having earlier forest chops will do it, imho. It makes forests relatively useful for everyone. Now, you don't want this to be 'too' good, so you drastically reduce chop hammers initally ... but then with Mining the hammers go to normal levels.

Also, giving +50% of 'normal' chop to Smelting rather than Archery makes more sense imho. Lumbermills can still go with archery I suppose, but certainly subject to potential change

Calabim though? Unless there is an easy way to bring unhappy to give +0.5 hammer rather than +1 hammer, I don't really know. Perhaps the gov manor could give a fixed amount of hammers .... although that would be biased towards young cities. You could make it a +50% hammers addition or something (perhaps a bit weaker), but again that would be better for mine heavy cities. The idea of governors manner is to take hammer low cities and to give them a bit of production. I guess the final choice would be like +2 hammers and +25% production ... which is a combo of discrete and continuous bonus, but weaker than original. Haven't even begun to think of full ramifications for this, but it could be huge.

Also, if one is to try and adress fireballs, they should address spectre spam as well. Summons like Spectres and Fireballs should not be allowed to pillage, although I didn't think fireballs could. I understand the reason behind skeletons not pillaging (as a lair spawn if for no other reason), but perhaps allowing pillage would be to strong. Given its upkeep costs however ... perhaps this is a needed boost to skeletons (well .... death1 doesn't need a boost but still, its not the most powerful, just most powerful for level 1 spells0.

Spectre affinity too ... should be +0.5 str per mana instead of +1 (if possible). +1 is just too easy to get out of hand in a game like FFH/ Civ IV where 1 str can make a huge difference. Definitely not a linear situation. Perhaps it is due to the 100 HP/ multiple combat/ combat until one dies aspect. If combat only lasted one or two rounds, and didn't last until someone died, the game might get a hell of a lot more interesting.

Not sure how to change that, but if possible, would definitely be worth it. Might even make summons slightly less useful, and isn't summoning one of the more OP things in the game?

Lastly we should look at the Vampires themselves. Is death2 really necessary on a vampire? The original vampire just had a damage spell instead of a summon spell. It however did not have a damage cap and therefore was just as insanely broken as every spell without a damage cap (back in light/fire early days iirc). Perhaps the answer is to only give them buff/debuff spells ... in order to help their army. A unit that is strong but not a replacement mage. Perhaps reduce hammers from 180 to 120 in order to acknowledge this change in the meta. That and/ or to add march to vampires for free :3

That way Vamps are what they were meant to be ... badass loners with a tendency to lead armies ... rather than some egalitarian society where everyone lives together and summons spectres. I could almost say the same for firebows and blasting golems ... but they do not have alternative functionality, unlike the diverse vampire.

There is the problem however where typically a firebow stack defeats an equally sized vampire stack. Of course, vampire stacks tend to be much larger than firebow stacks due to superior Gov manor production

It is part of a larger issue with magic .... but yes I feel that perhaps vampires could still defeat firebows without the aid of us modders. I have done so myself, but it would just require a bit of testing I think. to make sure that my victories were not just a byproduct of external factors.

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I could see giving melee permanently 1 speed (other than with haste) and all 'fast' movers to 2 speed ... perhaps. Its an interesting thought.

Offhand I could perhaps momentarily accept this and then only allow mobility promotions for cavalry. In that way Cavalry could reach a max of 4 speed but sacrifice 2 promotions to do so. Another choice is to nerf horselord to equal either +10% movement or nothing at all, give it as a hippus racial, and allow all hippus units access to mobility 1 and deny the rest. This would go parallel with destroying the mobility 2 promotion of coures. Spiritual and Arcane would still get 2 move casters though.

Another option to make hippus unique rather than giving them access to 3 movers (assuming 2 becomes max withut magic), is to have horselord give +10% withdrawal and +1 strike ... rather than +1 movement +10% withdrawal. The downside is that its not necessarily a 'game-winning' civ ... it just happens to have a *very* strong rush. And by rush I really just mean mid-game functionality here. Same with Kuriotates and Sidar really.

My mod did quite buff sidar, at least economically, by giving it a wider array of leaders and a free +2 shade GPP in the palace. This guarantees that 1) the early pacifism civic won't get wasted, and 2) that the Sidar get at least one shade before true battles commence.

also, I changed starting civics so that only those with passive GPP from capital start with Pacifism (Grigori/Sidar). I almost gave +2 priest GPP natural for Elohim palace, but then decided against it.

Perhaps giving Sidar recon the escape spell rather than the divided soul spell could be more appropriate. I disagree with it needing to take 2 turns, because two turns is incredibly long during a tough battle. Divided soul is within the span of one turn (and designed initially, I think, to both help sidar pass through mountains and to get out of dodge after an attack), so why not escape as well? Maybe it can't be cast unless no enemy units nearby, so would need to slightly retreat in order to cast? ^_^

Anyways, to help with the loss of Divided souls ... the sidar recon could also be allowed to move on impassable terrain (such as mountains). Would not affect their 'raw' mobility, but would ehance their defensive flavor while having comparable functionality to divided soul within some functions (like moving over mountains and at least thin mountain ranges). One nerf effect beyond just the maximum speed however would be that the Sidar recon could no longer 'puddle jump'. I wouldn't mind a certain version of divided soul only being allowed if on a tile next to the water. Perhaps exploitable, but better than nothing ^_^

another alternative would be to have the divided souls 'permanent' ... but take a while to summon. So it wouldn't extend your movement really (your overland movement would be as fast as the soul could move, since no longer spammable), but it would greatly increase its functionality ^_^

This would make it more ... interesting. Perhaps less predictable, but also less 'powerful' in a speed sort of sense. One thing I think Jomo would perhaps Critique is that once again you would have no true defense against it. Perhaps this is true ... one Con to doing it this way (even if it would be certainly quite fun )

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On Guardsmen and Spearmen. It is interesting that you mention that because the original FFH mod (Fire) did have some of those unit types. now GRANTED! It was as a whole even less balanced than it is now but! it did have spearmen and it did have guardsmen so at least at one point those ideas were well and alive within the Developers' minds.

I think Guardsmen yes perhaps either 3 +1 copper or 4 str, with guardsman promo and 100% vs assassins. I disagree on the cost though. Cost should be 120 just like assassins. Typically the guardsmen would kill more efficiently than a 1 for 1 trade, and assassins are quite specialist/ expensive, so I see no reason for the counter to be less specialist/ expensive.

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As far as spearmen however ... you have two primary tiers to look at. Horses at 4 str 60 hammers, and Horse archers at 6 str 120 hammers. Compare to axes at 5* str 45 hammers and Champions at 8* str 120 hammers. The key of course is movement. Now, if all FFH mounted were only 2 move we wouldn't even be haivng tihs discussion imho ... spears simply wouldn't be needed. (In BTS I think chariots and axes were fairly similarly priced, with maybe chariots even a bit cheaper. I really have no idea but ... prices were definitely lower in general across the board in BTS iirc. But of course such units were only used in the very early of the game rather than well into mid and late game).

Therefore Spearmen are a bit more tricky I think. My initial thought is perhaps 4 str (no metal usage) and +50% vs mounted. 45 hammers (same as axeman). However ... I would likely prefer to just make Formation1 easier to get to.

Another way of making Archers more relevant ofc is to make cover *harder* to get to. These two changes could see a bit more balance in the martial lines perhaps. That included with the 'training yard takes all comers' change. Either could work well indepdnently of course, but I think they work best together.

One final thing though. Specialty units like Guardsman and Spearmen should require the Barracks rather than the training yard. Their special nature requires a separate (if similar) building. Somewhat like Starcraft 2 xD

[Serdoa]

And when you are done changing all those unbalanced stuff you finally have Civ4 BTS...

[Tasunke]

So that's it then. Just flat rejection?

[Krill]

Pretty much. The design philosophy of FFH doesn't allow it to be rebalanced perfectly, the entire game is designed to be a short brutal affair of grabbing something OP then forcing a victory. Adding more balance prolongs games which adds in it's own type of imbalance.

[Jojo_Fr]

Krill,

There is no limit of redesigning a game. The propositions I made are simple, don't need complexe changements.

If you want to play competitive multiplayer with FFH2, you want to destroy the overpowerd and uncontrable things.

You are just sarcastic and your intervention is useless into the aim of this topic.

[Krill]

There comes a point where you are not rebalancing a game, but are instead designing a new game using something else as a base. I disagree that all of the changes you comment on would make the game more balanced, only that it would make the game different.

If you want to play competitive multiplayer with FFH2, you want to destroy the overpowerd and uncontrable things.

I disagree with this premise, because the idea of balance in FFH is different to that of other strategy games. The aim of FFH is to get the "overpowered" items in play quickly and to use them to win; making these items more counterable means that different items (strategies) are always better and need to be used to win. The end result is everything gets nerfed into a state where multiple items are needed to win a game effectively (like in BtS), and that different leaders and civs become more powerful because of the changing metagame, leading to a new imbalance.

You are just sarcastic and your intervention is useless into the aim of this topic.

Second post and already posting ad hominems?

[Merovech]

I have not read your specific proposals, so I cannot comment on them, but I would like to state that I think Krill and Serdoa are being a little harsh, so I hope that you do not become discouraged with RB.

[Jojo_Fr]

Krill,

I had ominen you because the problem is not in the argument, it is in your will. I feel it.

You don't want to discut my concret propositions, you want into a totaly abstraction, decline all of them, with a very classical argument of "you will not balance the game you will change it and perhaps create new balacing".

I am in the camp of the propositions (the action) and not you.

If you directely take propositions and say how and why it will break the philosophy of one civi or another, I'll listen you.

[Krill]

I think there is a slight language barrier here (Read: what you have written is ambivalent at best and otherwise nonsensical).