[SPOILERS] Charriu and Zalson are fighting the honorable post count war!

[Zalson]

A few adjustments to the plan:

T19: start a barracks instead of a warrior; otherwise, we just waste the hammers
T21: start fishing (I think we finish it here?)
T25: start wheel, fishing is in. chop out worker 2
T26: start the settler, move worker 2 to farm corn, worker 1 goes to chop second grassland forest
T30: chop into the settler, finish corn farm.
T31: move to forest grassland hill (both workers)
T32: compelte wheel research, chop into forest hill (cancel), select pottery
T33: REVOLT TO SLAVERY, road that forest hill, select workboat, settler done, settler moves to marked spot
T34: found city and start a barracks, work the corn, chop workboat at capital, move worker 2 1n and road (cancel order)
T35: workboat out and move to capital clam, start a worker at cap, worker 1 move 1n and road, worker 2 move 1nw and road (cancel)
T36: pick up clams at capital, worker 1 move 1nw and finish road, worker 2 move 1n and chop riverside forest at city 2
T37: worker 1 moves to northern plain forest at capital
T38: chop northern forest
T39: chop into barracks at city 2, worker #3 done

It gets a bit messy at that point.

I tested your plan and it's not working:

• BW finishs on T22 not T21 and only then can fishing start
  
• Fishing then finishs at T27 not T25
  
• The corn farm finishs on T31 not T30
  

But working a barracks instead of a warrior is the right move.

I think I gave us 10 more beakers than we should have.

I was starting settler 2 on turn 43, with a double chop in on 47. So maybe we double-whip the settler and use the double-chop to give us an extra workers? Or I may have had the double-chop timed to get the workboat out with the border pop at city 2.

The longer-term benefit was that I had granaries at city 2 on T42 and cap on T41. Maybe we don't want to sacrifice that.

[Krill]

That western site looks like the best available. Rice looks good for spot 3. Bummer the ivory is jungled.

You can still camp on jungle.

[Charriu]

That's right but even then the terrain around the ivory does not look that inviting with a lot of plain and no food resource immediately available. But if we would need the happiness then this would be an option.

[Zalson]

That's right but even then the terrain around the ivory does not look that inviting with a lot of plain and no food resource immediately available. But if we would need the happiness then this would be an option.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. Hope there's more happy ... to the north? To the west?

[Zalson]

We got 13 beakers last turn? RFS knows bronzeworking? Or am I missing something?

EDIT: we got the rounded beaker from hunting overflow I think.

[Zalson]

I think we can get the corn farm complete by Turn 30. Here's the rundown:

T21: finish riverside mine
T22: start worker, worker moves 1sw to chop grassland forest
T23: chop grassland forest
T25: chop comes in
T26: worker 2 out and direct to corn, worker 1 moves 1sw to grassland hill forest (start settler)
T27: worker 2 farms corn, worker 1 chops
T29: chop into settler
T30: worker 1 moves to corn and finishes farm
T31: both workers move 1n and chop into work boat (which we start after we finish the settler)

I currently have a revolt to slavery on T33 but I don't have us doing anything with it. So we can probably avoid that for now. Maybe revolt just before we get pottery so we can whip granaries on the next turn? Right now it looks like we get pottery on T41. Kind of at a loss for what we do with the workers T39 to 41. I guess we chop? Maybe we mine any available copper?

[Charriu]

We got 13 beakers last turn? RFS knows bronzeworking? Or am I missing something?

EDIT: we got the rounded beaker from hunting overflow I think.

Yes, you are right. I corrected the spreadsheet.

I think we can get the corn farm complete by Turn 30. Here's the rundown:

T21: finish riverside mine
T22: start worker, worker moves 1sw to chop grassland forest
T23: chop grassland forest
T25: chop comes in
T26: worker 2 out and direct to corn, worker 1 moves 1sw to grassland hill forest (start settler)
T27: worker 2 farms corn, worker 1 chops
T29: chop into settler
T30: worker 1 moves to corn and finishes farm
T31: both workers move 1n and chop into work boat (which we start after we finish the settler)

I currently have a revolt to slavery on T33 but I don't have us doing anything with it. So we can probably avoid that for now. Maybe revolt just before we get pottery so we can whip granaries on the next turn? Right now it looks like we get pottery on T41. Kind of at a loss for what we do with the workers T39 to 41. I guess we chop? Maybe we mine any available copper?

What about building a farm on the sugar during T39 - 41. Has the same food value as crabs and the second city can use it while we are waiting for the border pop. Even after that both cities can use it for growth.

[Charriu]

I think I will stop for now with detailed plans like this and will do detailed plans as soon as T22. This is what happens in T22:

• BW is discovered and we will know where the copper is
  
• The first warrior will have 4 turns of movement and will have explored enough land in the east to decide about any potential second city there. I highly doubt that there is a better city, but I could be mistaken
  
• Even with a city in the east we will propably want fishing first as this city will likely also depend on sea food.
  
• The plan unitl T22 is pretty fixed with the newly change from the second warrior to the barracks.
  
• At the current speed of turns we may see T22 just before the weekend, which gives us enough time for further planing.
  

I think until then the most important questions on a macro level are:

1. How early do we want our third settler?
   
2. When do we build our next worker?
   
3. How big should our cities grow?
   
4. How important is the border pop in our planned second city?
   
5. How much military do we want to defend against barbs? And when do we build it?
   

[Charriu]

1. How early do we want our third settler?

So looking at the terrain around our capitol. I see the following places worth settling:

• In the West 1E of the corn: This city has corn and fish and shares crab with our second city. The biggest problem is that it is low on production with only a desert and a grasland hill. It's also close to RFS and we don't have the military to support it right now.
  
• 1SE of the rice or anywhere near the rice: Biggest problem here is that it only has the wet rice as a food resource which is also the only resource. There is the potential to build farms thanks to the rivers. So far it does not need to be settled immediately, but this could change quickly if the copper is near the rice.
  
• Some city in the E: We don't know enough to make any predictions about the area, so far nothing interesting has dropped there. At least there is a lake for farms and potentially more seafood. There could be a nice commerce city there, but it's biggest problem will be production
  

So looking at the potential spots I don't see anything absolutely amazing right now. This could change with any discoveries in the east or a copper near the rice. If that does not happen I think it would be better to develop our two first cities first, before settling a third. An early third city would also be hard to support with only two workers. With pottery potentially being discovered at T41 we have at least 8 turns to work on a settler before building a granary.

2. When do we build our next worker?

A third worker will be a great help with settling and developing any potential third city. The questions is where to build it. The newly second city needs to grow first so the best place would be in the cap before pottery is discovered. The capitol can also work enough improved tiles by that time (corn, crab, pig, river mine). Thinking about it more and more I find that we definitly want a third worker before our third city.

3. How big should our cities grow?

So right now the capitol can work pig, crab and a river mine, so it should at least stay at 3 pop. I don't think that the barracks is that important right now, so we should focus on worker or settler production in the capitol and as soon as T41 comes around a granary. After that we want the barracks and archers. I think the city can go a while with only 3 pop. The workers propably won't have enough time to improve any more tiles and we could whip any additional pop as of now. Build order in the capitol could be

worker/settler -> granary -> barracks -> archer

We may do some barracks turn before the granary or during the worker/settler.

The second city will work the corn. As long as we don't have the borders pop it would be good to build a farm on the sugar and work it. We could also work the marble which gives at least 3 hammers, but only if we need to speed up any city production. This city needs to grow to at least pop 2 before the border pop, so we can only work a warrior or barracks. I think the barracks would be the best as we also need it for the border pop. Until the border pop we could leave the city at 2 pop, after that we want the granary and a workboat

barracks -> granary -> workboat


4. How important is the border pop in our planned second city?

I pretty sure that we want the border pop as soon as possible. But what if we don't. In that case we would propably work the farmed sugar and corn and maybe a mined marble for some hammers (Masonary will propably come in much later). To be honest the farmed sugar is almost equal to the crab so we won't miss anything and should we need early defenses in form of another warrior we could produce one here.


5. How much military do we want to defend against barbs? And when do we build it?

Right now we will have one warrior which feels very unsafe. I think the barbarians will start around T50 or so, so we have some time after archery is discovered in T44 to get some of them. So let's discuss for what else we will need military:

• Defend the second settler: The only thing that could endanger our settler would be animals and even them will only delay him in settling, because he will stay inside my border and can settle the same turn he leaves the borders. There is also our single warrior for protection.
  
• Defend a third settler: A third settler on his way to rice or the west will need some defensive unit, which could be our warrior.
  
• Defense against barbs or another player: In the unlikely event that some starts attacking me before T50, we could chop/whip out some warriors pretty soon. The cap can bring 8 hammers if need be which gives us warriors in 2 turns. There also the potential find copper early and produce some axeman if need be.
  

So I think it is safe to neglect military for now and start on archers as soon as the tech arrives.

[Zalson]

What about building a farm on the sugar during T39 - 41.

Yeah, that's a good plan. That makes the sugar better than a default tile to work -- and it allows us to get the +1 happy when calendar comes around.

1. How early do we want our third settler?

So looking at the terrain around our capitol. I see the following places worth settling:

• In the West 1E of the corn: This city has corn and fish and shares crab with our second city. The biggest problem is that it is low on production with only a desert and a grasland hill. It's also close to RFS and we don't have the military to support it right now.
  
• 1SE of the rice or anywhere near the rice: Biggest problem here is that it only has the wet rice as a food resource which is also the only resource. There is the potential to build farms thanks to the rivers. So far it does not need to be settled immediately, but this could change quickly if the copper is near the rice.
  
• Some city in the E: We don't know enough to make any predictions about the area, so far nothing interesting has dropped there. At least there is a lake for farms and potentially more seafood. There could be a nice commerce city there, but it's biggest problem will be production
  

So looking at the potential spots I don't see anything absolutely amazing right now. This could change with any discoveries in the east or a copper near the rice. If that does not happen I think it would be better to develop our two first cities first, before settling a third. An early third city would also be hard to support with only two workers. With pottery potentially being discovered at T41 we have at least 8 turns to work on a settler before building a granary.

The corn fish spot we should attempt to found if we have copper and it's still available. It doesn't need production: it has 3 food resources!

If RFS takes the spot, I think we found on the plains hill 1S of the rice. City in the east and the city over water we want to found earlier later than later. We also need to poke around to the ivory -- maybe there's some more food over there?

I think our scout needs to head back toward the Rice to uncover that area.

2. When do we build our next worker?

A third worker will be a great help with settling and developing any potential third city. The questions is where to build it. The newly second city needs to grow first so the best place would be in the cap before pottery is discovered. The capitol can also work enough improved tiles by that time (corn, crab, pig, river mine). Thinking about it more and more I find that we definitly want a third worker before our third city.

I agree. My plan has worker 3 being done on T38, just in time to farm that sugar.

3. How big should our cities grow?

So right now the capitol can work pig, crab and a river mine, so it should at least stay at 3 pop. I don't think that the barracks is that important right now, so we should focus on worker or settler production in the capitol and as soon as T41 comes around a granary. After that we want the barracks and archers. I think the city can go a while with only 3 pop. The workers propably won't have enough time to improve any more tiles and we could whip any additional pop as of now. Build order in the capitol could be

worker/settler -> granary -> barracks -> archer

We may do some barracks turn before the granary or during the worker/settler.

The second city will work the corn. As long as we don't have the borders pop it would be good to build a farm on the sugar and work it. We could also work the marble which gives at least 3 hammers, but only if we need to speed up any city production. This city needs to grow to at least pop 2 before the border pop, so we can only work a warrior or barracks. I think the barracks would be the best as we also need it for the border pop. Until the border pop we could leave the city at 2 pop, after that we want the granary and a workboat

barracks -> granary -> workboat

I don't think we should keep the capital at just 3 population without a very good reason. It's better for us to grow to size 4 and whip it down than to avoid growing to size 3.

I think we finish the barracks between T39 and 41 in the capital while we're waiting for pottery, mostly because we can. That allows us to grow to size 4, setting up a 2 pop whip at the capital. Then we go: settler (T42, revolt to slavery) whip settler T46 and overflow into the granary, which completes T48, while regrowing.

For the second city, I think we go: barracks (chop it out), then workboat, then swap to granary (chop into it) and then whip that into the workboat. The timing allows to have a workboat in position for the crabs when borders pop.

Around T44 we run into a bit of a tile drought: we have a size 4 capital working all improved tiles but second city is size 3 with all tiles chopped. So we should think about perhaps mining and roading the spices? It really depends on where copper is... if it's there at all. I'll share my spreadsheet with you.

4. How important is the border pop in our planned second city?

I pretty sure that we want the border pop as soon as possible. But what if we don't. In that case we would propably work the farmed sugar and corn and maybe a mined marble for some hammers (Masonary will propably come in much later). To be honest the farmed sugar is almost equal to the crab so we won't miss anything and should we need early defenses in form of another warrior we could produce one here.

We want that border pop asap: it gives us 3 extra forests plus the crab. 60 hammers is a worker!

5. How much military do we want to defend against barbs? And when do we build it?

Right now we will have one warrior which feels very unsafe. I think the barbarians will start around T50 or so, so we have some time after archery is discovered in T44 to get some of them. So let's discuss for what else we will need military:

• Defend the second settler: The only thing that could endanger our settler would be animals and even them will only delay him in settling, because he will stay inside my border and can settle the same turn he leaves the borders. There is also our single warrior for protection.
  
• Defend a third settler: A third settler on his way to rice or the west will need some defensive unit, which could be our warrior.
  
• Defense against barbs or another player: In the unlikely event that some starts attacking me before T50, we could chop/whip out some warriors pretty soon. The cap can bring 8 hammers if need be which gives us warriors in 2 turns. There also the potential find copper early and produce some axeman if need be.
  

So I think it is safe to neglect military for now and start on archers as soon as the tech arrives.

I think we're fine with neglecting military until the barbs start coming in earnest. Honestly, we probably don't need an additional warrior until turn 50 or so. I think we're on the same page here.