RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[Krill]

MJW, fwiw, I understand how people have different ideas about what is and is not acceptable, and it takes alot of thought to figure out the implicatins of what you post. That is one of the reasons it is almost impossible to post anything in a players thread, when that thread has not been regulary updated. Provided that we all sort out the problems in the current set up, and get everyone onboard with what we as a community feel is a good solution, then what has hapened, has hapened, and there is no reason to hold any grudges about it.

And yeah, that last post was right on the mark. Spullla are most likely to lose this game because of how the diplomacy falls, and any comments or suggestions regardin the diplomacy which causes them to realise the mistakes they have made and are making, means they have ben spoiled, or influenced by the lurkers. Which is Bad™.

[Axiis]

While I completely understand your concern about lurkers tipping the game for Speaker and Sullla, I'm not sure that it's really warranted in this case. I haven't really been able to detect any significant difference in how Sullla has been conducting his diplomacy, except that other teams have become more willing to work with him. Better outcomes don't necessarily indicate a change in strategy.

Secondly, I got the feeling that the comments Sullla was referring to were the ones posted in his spoiler thread criticizing him for the way he talks about other teams. There have been more than a few of those posted in his thread.

Hey, I wanted to address a topic that's come to our attention recently. Apparently a lot of the lurkers are upset with Speaker and myself because there's a perception that we're acting in condescending fashion to the other teams. I suppose that a lot of this probably centers around some of our comments that Jowy and Dantski have made various silly/stupid moves during the game so far.

I'm not sure anyone called him out on his diplo here. It seems to me that that post was directed towards the posts in their spoiler thread rather than criticisms of the e-mails they sent out. Sullla did mention some criticism of his e-mail diplo, but that seemed to be in response to people saying they were dishonest than someone saying they were outright bad.

I will of course respect any decision you make on this issue, but I think you might be reading too much into the situation.

[banshee]

Secondly, I got the feeling that the comments Sullla was referring to were the ones posted in his spoiler thread criticizing him for the way he talks about other teams. There have been more than a few of those posted in his thread.
[...]
I will of course respect any decision you make on this issue, but I think you might be reading too much into the situation.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Krill]

It may well be that lurkers have influenced Spullla in his thread. Is this acceptable though? Are the lurkers here to play this game by proxy, though the players? I'd have thought not. One way or another, lurkers need to realise that this is not our game to play, it is the players. We are here to have fun, be entertained, and to learn. We should do that without influencing the game. That is what is critical.

Right now, I'm trying to work out the best way to allow the maximum lurker interaction, but with zero influence. Should be done asap...but not how I expected to spend a satuday night.

[Krill]

OK, rough idea, needs polishing, which is why I'm posting here, and asking for input from the community. AFAICT, it works, but I need peoples opinions on it (note, all this is non-binding).

1) Lurkers can respond to civ4 mechanics questions (eg how many turns for a worker to chop a forest? Why didn't my cottage grow? How does the AP work?)

2) Lurkers can congratulate players on achieving a goal (eg Well done on getting that city spot)

2a) However, don't reveal unnecessary information on your comment (eg Well done on getting that city spot - I really thought that Greece was going to get it)

3) Lurkers can participate in option discussions but only after the player has articulated the options and only to the extent of pointing out additional strengths / weaknesses of options that the player might have missed.

3a) Lurkers can NOT suggest additional options that the play might have missed
3b) Lurkers can NOT express opinions about various options
3c) Lurkers can NOT ask questions regarding player decisions, until they have been posted and checked in the No Players thread by at least 2 other lurkers.

4) Lurkers can express opinions on player agreed rules, but should also point out that rules agreed by the players should be discussed by the players

5) Lurkers can ask a team to explain their opinion about ingame situations and developments, but must do this without writing leading questions, or implying information gained from other spoiler threads.

6) Lurkers cannot ask sequence questions.

7) Lurkers can ask for screenshots

Now, I think the above works, because there is one very important addendum. Any lurker that is spoiled by more than one team (ie those lurkers not dedicated to a single team) can ask any of the above questions in the No Players thread (ie here).

Those lurkers that dedicated to single teams, and are not privy to any other information sources, are to be considered for the intents and purposes of the lurker code of conduct, as team mebers and not lurkers. They will have the option to become fully fledged lurkers if they choose, and sbject to the lurker rules of conduct.

If lurkers must post that they agree to follow whatever rules are decided, or they are banned from posting in any spoiler thread except the the No players thread; any posts that they do make will be deleted by the forum mods and the incident be passed up to the admins. I think this bit is basically what already happens, but I'm posting it explicitly so everyone understands it.

[pindicator]

Secondly, I got the feeling that the comments Sullla was referring to were the ones posted in his spoiler thread criticizing him for the way he talks about other teams. There have been more than a few of those posted in his thread.

This was my initial thought but when I doubled back through the postings it doesn't seem to fit. The postings I see criticizing Sullla in his thread are made 2 or 3 pages (and many days) before this. It is possible that Sulllla had just been building up to a post like this, but there hadn't been any comments as of late so I am unsure.

Then again, where else would they have come from? I also get the feeling that if someone would have tipped Sullla off with spoiler info via PM he would have been very upset and posted this publicly -- he doesn't seem the type of person who would want his game spoiled.

[Axiis]

There were a flurry of posts while I was writing this - this is in response to Krill's post above the one where he set out the lurker rules.

Well yeah, but I don't Sullla is being influenced with respect to his gameplay (or with respect to how he talks about other teams, judging by his lengthy comment saying that he won't be changing how he reports turns). As I said before, I haven't seen any remarkable shift in how Spullla conducts their diplomacy. They are still looking out for number one, delaying messages, and choosing their words carefully. The only real difference I can see is that they are starting to realize the severity of the diplomatic situation based on the interactions of the Mediterranean alliance, so they are working harder to secure alliances. Their diplomacy with Slaze has been pretty bad (on both ends), and they're having trouble communicating with Danstki. The only team they are actually building good relationships with is Korea, and I don't think that's because some lurkers have been complaining about the tone with which they discuss other teams in their spoiler thread.

Then again, where else would they have come from? I also get the feeling that if someone would have tipped Sullla off with spoiler info via PM he would have been very upset and posted this publicly -- he doesn't seem the type of person who would want his game spoiled.

I agree with your assessment of Sullla's personality, which makes me believe that if there was some extra-curricular interactions going on between a lurker and Spulla, then it must have been about the tone they've taken in their thread. As I've said, I don't think it's particularly worrisome if lurkers are trying to influence the tone with which Spullla reports on the game, unless you are worried about some kind of obtuse reaction which makes Spullla treat their opponents as humans rather than as AIs in their diplo as well as their spoiler thread reports as a result of the proposed shift in tone.

Basically I'm asking you to trust the discretion of the lurkers. I've been trying very hard to not influence the direction of any team, and I'm sure the same is true of just about everyone else. If you think banning lurker discussion is the only way forward from here, I'll respect that. However, I do think that such a decision would greatly harm interest in this game and would go against what this community stands for.

[Krill]

Banning lurker discussion is temporary, povided etiquette is followed. It's to get the situation under control asap. Hopefully that gets lifted by tomorrow at the latest.

Then again, where else would they have come from? I also get the feeling that if someone would have tipped Sullla off with spoiler info via PM he would have been very upset and posted this publicly -- he doesn't seem the type of person who would want his game spoiled.

That is me being paranoid; there is nothing anyone can do to stop that from ever happening. I'm explicitly stating that people shouldn't do it though, is all.

[MJW (ya that one)]

I came up with 3 extra rules.

1. No PM's to players
2. You can ask for an update if the player did not do one for a long time and things have changed a lot.
3. You can not criticise a player for anything. This might make them fix what caused the criticism and improve their gameplay/diplo. Not good.

There is nothing we can do if Spulla has changed. Someone in their theard said that their diplo msgs where bad and their was no reaction. I have noticed that their msgs are a bit more respectful -- but I may just be seeing things.

[m4gill4]

I'm confused, what exactly brought all this on? Who is spoiled about what? Sullla is spoiled that someone in the lurker thread thinks he's a meanie? What's all the fuss about?