RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[Adlain]

From the Player threads:

You doublemoved. That simple. Whether it is done while at peace or at war, it is still a double move.

i didnt want to post this and cause a problem for you in the public (playerwise), but am i wrong in thinking that there have been alot of doublemoves like this during this game and it is just unfortunute for slaze that he has done it when a war dec was planned.

i seem to recall during the India war, it was noted that jowy played 2 turns in succession for a total of 4-8 minuites in spullas thread, and im sure i have seen most teams do this atleast once during the game sofar.

[WilliamLP]

I guess the key point is that a double move in peace doesn't do any harm and is considered perfectly fine? The price for this system seems to be unavoidable frequent reloads.

[Lobo.Thibron]

On other hand Slaze did know or suspected that something is going to happen at turn 150 and he maybe on purpose waited to play last at turn 149 so he can play next turn first.

[Krill]

Thanks for the foresight, it is appreciated

The problem is quite simple: players are requested to play again if they are the last to play the turn, to keep the game running as smoothly as possible. It's most helpful for those that have a very tight schedule so they only really have to play every other turn, as it were.

You are exactly right that it is unfortunate that it happened exactly when Whosit intended to make a war dec. My recollection is that all such double moves have occurred at peace time, and none in war time; if there were any at war time, then did anyone complain, point it out, or was it missed completely?

I take it that there isn't a problem I'm missing here, that this isn't a double?

I guess the key point is that a double move in peace doesn't do any harm and is considered perfectly fine? The price for this system seems to be unavoidable frequent reloads.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm tempted to say that if a reload is required in circumstances such as these, the party requesting the reload should not log in (unless necessary to realise that a reload is required), so not spoiled by extra information. Would that make sense? Basically just a courtesy request, not a rule.

[Cyneheard]

Here's Sullla referring to Jowy's back-to-back turns:

http://http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/sh...#post64873

This was T140. The peace treaty was signed T122 or T123, although a NAP ran through T150. So while technically in-game Spullla could have declared war on Jowy at any moment, forcing Jowy to act as though Spullla might break the NAP at any moment seems more than a little over-paranoid.

That is a different situation from "I've got NAPs running out left and right, and I just whipped an army of longbows," and while IMHO Jowy was clearly OK to play his turns in succession, I don't have a clear opinion on the ideal set of actions in slaze's situation; he might not have the time to play the turn much later.

[Krill]

I don't have a clear opinion on the ideal set of actions in slaze's situation; he might not have the time to play the turn much later.

That is one of the reasons there is a pause rule built into that rule, so everyone knows that they aren't getting screwed over by a war declaration.

[Adlain]

this is an example of what i wanted to avoid by posting in here - one can of worms opened in public !!!!

You doublemoved. That simple. Whether it is done while at peace or at war, it is still a double move.

Ooooh, I can't just sit on the sidelines when there's rule fightings to be done.

Poll 15: Double moves
The RBP1 revised double-move rule
Quote:
(a) - All settler moves that result in ending a turn in neutral territory must occur 9 hours (in-game) after the last movement of that settler, if applicable.
(b) - REMOVED
© - During a war all units in enemy or neutral territory, and all units in friendly territory that are capable of attacking or defending versus enemy units at any point during the turn must wait at least 9 hours following any previous move before they may move again.
(d) - When in doubt, act in good faith.

Sunrise covered the double moving with that poll and your extension covered the turn split. I was under the impression that outside of war double moves were actually allowed, and considering the complaints we've had previously on the last person playing the turn not immediately playing the next I can understand why Slaze did so in this case.

I realize that as game admin you are free to make whatever rulings you see fit, but perhaps the double move rule needs updating to reflect your ruling?

[Mukha]

Sorry, didn't realize all the discussion was happening here. I deleted that post.

[novice]

Reloads have their own set of associated problems, though. I hate to agree with Exploit, but these rules (or at least their interpretation) are getting increasingly byzantine. It doesn't seem to me that the number of loopholes is decreasing with each revision.

What if a team is planning an attack on a non-specific turn, log in, notice that their intended victim has double-moved (in peacetime) in a non-advantageous way, and thus decides to choose that turn as their war declaration. Are they allowed a reload?

Wouldn't the more pragmatic approach in this instance be basically what Slaze is saying: Sorry Whosit, your window has closed, if you DoW this turn you get the second half.

I think basically there are conflicting interests between preventing wartime double moves and giving teams flexibility in choosing turn halves.

BTW I completely agree that the lurkers should keep their opinions in here, and let the players and the game admin duke it out in the public players thread or in the tech thread.

[Krill]

I'll go back to basics, but I'm sure I'lll forget to explain something.

Let's start at he beginning, why do we even need a turn split rule? Because the players have decided that warfare will be sequential based.

Why do we need a double move rule? Same reason as above.

How do we reconcile that players will move at different times each turn, along with the fact that war can break out at any time, plus the need to keep war declarations secret until they occur? You got me there, I don't know a flawless way to do it, short of instituting a hard double move timer for peace time (NOW that is byzantine).

What if a team is planning an attack on a non-specific turn, log in, notice that their intended victim has double-moved (in peacetime) in a non-advantageous way, and thus decides to choose that turn as their war declaration. Are they allowed a reload?

Players can be opportunistic and wait until it is favourable to swoop in from the FoW. It would be inconsistant to say that sequential warfare is OK sometimes and not others: how would you know which scenario calls for simultaneous warfare, and sequential? That is hellishly complicated to sort out.

Imagine if the units double moved during peace time is a stack of HA past an advancing stack, pillages hte roads, and now there is nothing btween that enemy HA stack and your core, only that war has not yet been declared? That is was a double move at peace time doesn;t make it acceptable. In the current situation, Slaze just double moved Lnogbows from cities further away towards his front city. Is that fair?

It definitely doesn;t jive with the idea of sequential warfare, that's for sure.