RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[Krill]

If CiV is junk most people are probably going to stick around here. If it isn't, then it'll suck up alot of players from here. Either way, not something to unduly worry about. if we need to create a solid set of rules, and a mod, we can do that.

[m4gill4]

If CiV is junk most people are probably going to stick around here. If it isn't, then it'll suck up alot of players from here. Either way, not something to unduly worry about. if we need to create a solid set of rules, and a mod, we can do that.

Why not just start a civ V pitboss in addition to the continuing civ IV games? I'm sure there will be some civ V adventures and epics once people get the hang of it (assuming it's a solid game)? In a way it would be the ultimate Epic: Win a RB style challenge on a game you've hardly ever played!

edit: and I was never suggesting that anything be done, I was just complaining. Think of it like a fan yelling "boo, hiss" out of the stands at a ball game.

[WilliamLP]

Is it just me or is Athlete single-handedly responsible for much of what makes this game so much fun to lurk? From the military retaliation against Byzantium, to organizing the CoW, to the public slip, now to a legendary underhanded backstab! We know he's a player capable even of breaking a NAP, yet he has been extremely good at getting friends in this game. How good is your diplo success when multiple players are actually willing to gift you cities?

For a zany conspiracy theory, how awesome would it be if Athlete's "gaffe", was actually intentional (along with the denial)? I know that's ridiculous, but it really couldn't have gone any better for him, at least in the short run, with a temporary NAP with the Killer Angels they couldn't have had otherwise, as well as a perfect (and perfectly evil!) chance to strike at Slaze despite already getting spanked once in military?

Also, I marvel at Sullla's talk that they'd be better off in Jowy's position, because they would have gifted metal to Byzantium and had a solid eastern ally. But is it really better to have a solid ally one position over who is going to be battling you (friendly or not) for micro of tiles to every extent of the Civ IV engine? Or is it better, like Jowy did, to have an actual friend two positions over, equally grateful that he did _not_ gift metal to Byzantium, with a wide open space for expansion, whether he used it well?

[timmy827]

On corporations: yeah, this is something we haven't discussed much. Whether to use corporations or go with State Property is another major issue to consider. If we stay at our current size, I think corporations are a no-brainer and much superior to State Property. However, I was basing my previous long post on this subject on the assumption that we would attack and conquer Kathlete, in which case we would have something like 30+ cities and absolutely crippling distance maintenance costs even before factoring in corporations. With us not being Organized in this game, I personally think we do better with State Property eliminating most of the costs of a bloated empire. Yes, we lose out on the very important bonus food and production and culture - but we also don't have to fool with spreading the corporation around either, and paying the gold to set up branches everywhere. That's a nice help there. And this being MP, no one can just trade for a gazillion fish from the AIs to power their Sushi corporation either.

It's a questing of which victory condition you choose to pursue. Corporations are generally better for Culture and Space, State Property is better for Domination. I think that if all things are equal, Speaker and I would rather go for Domination than one of the more peaceful conditions, knowing full well how tough that could be. There's also a minor bit of personal preference too - Speaker and I both think corporations are broken and poorly implemented; given a choice, we would probably rather crush our enemies with the awesome production of State Property than trade for extra gold resources to increase cultural output of our Creative Culture branch. One is a lot more rewarding and fun than the other.

Not to mention, very few people seem to realize just how much production you can get in the lategame using State Property with proper tile management. On this grassland-heavy map, we could easily get 100 shields/turn out of just about every city with a couple of Biology farms and a crapload of State Property workshops and watermills. Or Universal Suffrage + levees would turn all those riverside grassland cottages into massive shield producers. There's plenty of fun ways to take this into the later game still.

Anyone else find this odd? I always thought corporations got better as the empire gets bigger, your costs go up linearly (and they are significant) but your benefits go up quadratically (more cities with the corp, plus controlling more resources so more benefit per city). Also, imagining that humans will trade them extra corp resources sounds rather fanciful.

I'm also a little surprised by their GP plans. Always thought the GP bulbing was way more powerful when you could also trade those techs for 3x their listed value; in this no trading game I find it hard to value bulbs over golden ages.

[MJW (ya that one)]

1. GA's are a bit underpowered in this game. So bulbing is still something to consider.
2. In order to use the GA effectivly they would have to mash the Science Slider to 100% and show off their scary GNP.
3. They know that Corps. are too strong. They are roleplaying and making a weaker move on purpose. If they lose because of this (unlikely) they will look a bit silly.

[Shoot the Moon]

1. GA's are a bit underpowered in this game. So bulbing is still something to consider.

Huh? Considering Spulla's economy, a GA gives more beakers than a bulb (or soon will if they aren't quite at that point yet), and then on top of that has the additional advantage of extra hammers, GP points, and free civics switching.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Huh? Considering Spulla's economy, a GA gives more beakers than a bulb (or soon will if they aren't quite at that point yet), and then on top of that has the additional advantage of extra hammers, GP points, and free civics switching.

Oh, they would make more beakers at once, without 100%?

[Shoot the Moon]

Oh, they would make more beakers at once, without 100%?

They are certainly approaching that point, yes. I'm not saying right now it is entirely equal on a strictly beakers sense, but in the near future it will be for them (and that is ignoring all of the other benefits of a GA).

[Cyneheard]

Athlete is shocked that slaze might quit over being backstabbed WITH SLAZE'S ARMY? Um...yeah...I don't blame slaze a bit if he quit.

I think this is the worst backstab in any of the games to date.

Slaze, however, that was some to gift your army and not get an actual NAP that would last. "If I do this, you must promise to never attack me again for 50 turns, or 100 turns, or the rest of the game." What athlete did was evil, what you did was foolhardily trust him without getting an actual deal to defend yourself with.

[Darkmantle]

I think he did what a lot of people tend to do, get vague promises and not quite certain statements and assemble them into "We have a NAP" when those actual words were never said. He even had one of the lurkers ask him exactly what he was getting and he still didn't insist on a definite NAP with Athlete.

Athlete's mispost has really done him a hell of a great job. He then goes and plays right into Spulla's plans by opening up the Slaze war again, even though Slaze agrees that India needs to be seen as the runaway civilization.

Speaker and Sulla are going to have a fit of giggles when they hear the war has reopened. Unless it causes Slaze to quit and the game grinds to a halt.