[Spoilers PB23] Old Harry's attempt at civilizing AdrienIer

[AdrienIer]

No the worker at the cap will go SE to Maserus. And I do count on building 7 libraries, there are easily 10 reasonably good sites I can see, with at least 7 good for commerce. I have to start with the gold, which will be hooked in 2 or 3 turns, to help the whole empire. And the rice isn't irrigated so it's only +1f (although I'll want that tile improved as soon as the gold is done). All that to say that as I said in the previous post I really need workers to compensate for my 2 losses.

[Old Harry]

Okay I've been struggling to think how I can help - I think you're mostly telling me what you've done, rather than making short- and mid-term plans and explaining and getting feedback. If that's because you are just playing turn by turn then, while that's the most fun way to play it's also the best way to coast to mid-table and get run over by your neighbour (CH is looking worryingly strong ). For instance I'm not sure why you went for Sailing before Maths - or did I miss you discussing that?


I had a look in game and have a few observations:
- Mhlahland... is going Barracks first - it'll get it EOT69 and borders pop t80 to get you clams. I think Maserus might have given you a bad impression - Barracks first only beats Granary first if you've got nothing first ring and this city has fish first ring. I'd switch to the Granary, chop into it and whip it when you get to size 2, and then grab the Barracks.
- Also that worker should road the tile he's on instead of chopping (I cancelled his action in case you want to do this next turn), then perhaps road and quarry the stone and chop the tile SE or SW of the city (for a reason I'll come to in four points time) to get the Maths boost.
- Did we discuss Lobambus being your main unit pump? Two food and six hills to mine looks good for a HE. Farming the tile N of the corn gives you chained irrigation, you can also get a canal by forting the plains tile SW of the city.
- You've got a warrior guarding Mthathum which has two spare happy - that warrior should go allow the capital to grow.
- After the Granary Mtubatub... could build a work boat to explore.
- Also the rice is irrigated by the lake.
- With a few roads and some pre-chopping site 4 could be a MoM candidate - it costs 450 hammers and Marble gives you 50% extra so the 10 available forests would get you 450 hammers! (That forest you're chopping for Mhla is one of those ten).

So while things aren't looking great so far I think you are a million miles from being done...

[AdrienIer]

You're probably right about my reporting, I should focus more on what's coming in the next turns rather than what I just did. Or at least explain more. I'm not playing it completely turn by turn but I know there's not enough simming. Sailing before maths was because I wanted lighthouses in a few key cities (they're delayed currently due to not having a big enough military and needing more workers), and because I had planned for the stone city to not be connected via roads for a long time, with the worker chopping then hooking the stone. Because of the needed workers the lighthouse in the cap (vital because the cow is shared so the fish is the only reliable food there) is delayed by easily 10 turns, it's a shame.

Barracks first in stone city was also because it's eventually going to be an awesome production site because of Moai (other reason for sailing early, and it's supposed to be at least partially chopped, so I don't want to count 10 forests for site 4). The happiness limit will rise with calendar and city 7 so 2 food resources will be very beneficial. Also it means getting +100% hammers which, with the low production of the early turns is really valuable. But perhaps you're right and I'm delaying the granary too much. If it's granary first then of course the best plan is to delay the chop, too bad I've started to optimize the micro for the barracks.

Lobambus has an impressive production potential, that's why I'm building a barrack there as well. It's going to be the main settler pump for now, later units too when the happy cap is higher. Good catch with the canal, it would be nice to turn this into a single body of water.

The warrior in Mthathum was there to protect the settler at first, but you're right with all the undefended unhappy cities it should head south.

Gold city can go WB next, but I'm not sure how to play it, I think it should use the gold next to build the granary and when it's done go back to the rice till it's grown. It doesn't need culture as there's no important tile second ring. Are you sure the rice is irrigated ? The tooltip says +1f, I'll test it right away.

Site 4 will more likely have 8 or 9 forests available, but that still means 360 or 405h, add to it a few worked hammer tiles and we can get the MoM done very soon after calendar. All I need is workers to prepare the field and culture there to access the western forests.

Edit : About CH, take into account that he's barely whipped his empire at all, Caledorn hadn't even revolted to slavery when he left. I can't be sure but some of that score lead comes from population. It's good to have a big pop but it probably means he has less infrastructure. If you meant his soldier count it's rather high but I'm not too alarmed : an axe is coming from Mthathum and Maserus has another one with 5/35 ready for an emergency whip just in case.

[AdrienIer]

Because I've been too vague and not explanatory enough I'm going to go through a full empire overview this turn.

But first, the scouting news are good today. The site west of Lobambus is viable.




And the eastern frontier spot as well (as long as we're not in conflict with CH).




Gold city : it's not worth it to work the gold right now, granary would be in 11 turns and 11 turns without growing is intolerable, even for a gold tile. it only delays the gold tile by 5 turns, and the granary by less.




Mthatum will stagnate for a while, it gets 9hpt into a worker each turn, so 12 with the exp bonus. Pretty nice.




Lobambus double whips the worker next turn then grow back to the happy cap, goes on with the barrack or settler (not sure yet).




Maserus finishes the granary in 3t, then I'm not so sure what to do with it. Maybe slow build the axe while growing ? The warrior is escorting a worker towards the corn, CH has a warrior right next to it and I won't let it become impi 2.0




The cap is complicated but I have conflicting needs, workers are needed, whipping is to be avoided and the cap must grow. I think the best option is too slow build it because 3 turns is relatively quick.




Necessary demo shot. It's not so bad after all.




Edit : I went for your version of the stone city. I hope it works well. You're the mentor after all.

[Old Harry]

Sailing before maths was because I wanted lighthouses in a few key cities

Ah, now this is one of the things that (I believe) people do wrong - building a lighthouse is about half the hammers of a settler and right now it'll get you one or two extra food (possibly three with your capital) - a new city gets you five or six extra food (so about par with two lighthouses) and the benefit of another city starting its snowball. Generally I don't like to build infra (other than Granaries or necessary culture buildings) until the economy is starting to crash and you have to. Your slider is still 50% (without working the capital cottages and the gold), so you can expand a bit further before consolidating what you have...

Barracks first in stone city was also because it's eventually going to be an awesome production site because of Moai (other reason for sailing early, and it's supposed to be at least partially chopped, so I don't want to count 10 forests for site 4). The happiness limit will rise with calendar and city 7 so 2 food resources will be very beneficial. Also it means getting +100% hammers which, with the low production of the early turns is really valuable. But perhaps you're right and I'm delaying the granary too much. If it's granary first then of course the best plan is to delay the chop, too bad I've started to optimize the micro for the barracks.

Having Moai and a size 12 city is great, at size 7 that's only 7 hammers. I agree you want Moai there, but I'd value (a shot at) the MoM much higher than getting Moai 15-20 turns earlier. Once you have Maths you can see if anyone else (you've met) has Calender with known-tech-bonus to see how much of a shot you have.

I think Pindicator or Scooter did some maths somewhere with Granaries vs Lighthouses showing that with slavery the Granary always wins. I'd assume the same with this case, especially with the first-ring fish, but I couldn't guarantee it without simming .

Lobambus has an impressive production potential, that's why I'm building a barrack there as well. It's going to be the main settler pump for now, later units too when the happy cap is higher. Good catch with the canal, it would be nice to turn this into a single body of water.

Cool - there may be a point where you want that tile to be a workshop or a farm, but when you have ten spare worker turns a fort will be handy...

Gold city can go WB next, but I'm not sure how to play it, I think it should use the gold next to build the granary and when it's done go back to the rice till it's grown. It doesn't need culture as there's no important tile second ring. Are you sure the rice is irrigated ? The tooltip says +1f, I'll test it right away.

I'd grow it to size 2 then work both tiles, then chop and/or whip the Granary to complete with the food box half full. With the gold/rice dilemma - if in doubt work food tiles, but until the rice is farmed the gold might make more sense... The rice says fresh water, which means that a farm gets +1 food, so the tooltip is a bit disingenuous.

Site 4 will more likely have 8 or 9 forests available, but that still means 360 or 405h, add to it a few worked hammer tiles and we can get the MoM done very soon after calendar. All I need is workers to prepare the field and culture there to access the western forests.

I hadn't thought about culture - guess a chopped barracks and ten turn wait puts a dent in the eta . Although it's only two forests (assuming stone city pops its borders in time) outside your culture so 8*30*1.5 + 2*20*1.5 = 360 + 60 = 420, meaning some whip overflow or just working a mine for a little while should do the trick . If I've convinced you that MoM > Moai .

Edit : About CH, take into account that he's barely whipped his empire at all, Caledorn hadn't even revolted to slavery when he left. I can't be sure but some of that score lead comes from population. It's good to have a big pop but it probably means he has less infrastructure. If you meant his soldier count it's rather high but I'm not too alarmed : an axe is coming from Mthathum and Maserus has another one with 5/35 ready for an emergency whip just in case.

That sounds odd - he's IMP so I'd expect him to be whipping his settlers. Nice work with the emergency whip preparations though .

Preview Edit: Nice report! That border city with CH is very promising, especially with the visibility the peaks will give you. But:
- can Mthatum work the forest hill cottage?
- at Maserus CH's warrior is C1 isn't it? Has yours got a promo? If not then I'd avoid tempting him and have the worker build a road or something til he goes away...

[Krill]

Ah, now this is one of the things that (I believe) people do wrong - building a lighthouse is about half the hammers of a settler and right now it'll get you one or two extra food (possibly three with your capital) - a new city gets you five or six extra food (so about par with two lighthouses) and the benefit of another city starting its snowball. Generally I don't like to build infra (other than Granaries or necessary culture buildings) until the economy is starting to crash and you have to. Your slider is still 50% (without working the capital cottages and the gold), so you can expand a bit further before consolidating what you have...

Aren't you guys ORG? Caesar, right?

EDIT:

I think Pindicator or Scooter did some maths somewhere with Granaries vs Lighthouses showing that with slavery the Granary always wins. I'd assume the same with this case, especially with the first-ring fish, but I couldn't guarantee it without simming crazyeye.

Granary increases effectives food from +5 to +10 (as food box is essentially halved, it's not 100% accurate but close enough for a rule of thumb). Lighthouse increases food from +5 to +6.

ORG Lighthouse changes this ever so slightly because you can get that +1 food so many turns earlier that it may give you an advantage. In reality it doesn't if you have chops available because you don't have enough turns between when the lighthouse completes and the granary would complete to gain a sufficient advantage.

[AdrienIer]

Aren't you guys ORG? Caesar, right?

Shaka here, so no easy lighthouse. CH is Julius and Elum is Augustus (not org but caesar anyway)

Ah, now this is one of the things that (I believe) people do wrong - building a lighthouse is about half the hammers of a settler and right now it'll get you one or two extra food (possibly three with your capital) - a new city gets you five or six extra food (so about par with two lighthouses) and the benefit of another city starting its snowball. Generally I don't like to build infra (other than Granaries or necessary culture buildings) until the economy is starting to crash and you have to. Your slider is still 50% (without working the capital cottages and the gold), so you can expand a bit further before consolidating what you have...

But lighthouses don't stop city growth for 6 turns. I see your point though.

Having Moai and a size 12 city is great, at size 7 that's only 7 hammers. I agree you want Moai there, but I'd value (a shot at) the MoM much higher than getting Moai 15-20 turns earlier. Once you have Maths you can see if anyone else (you've met) has Calender with known-tech-bonus to see how much of a shot you have.

I'd prioritize a world wonder over a national one in most situations, trading MoM for a few turns of Moai is definitely worth it.

I'd grow it to size 2 then work both tiles, then chop and/or whip the Granary to complete with the food box half full. With the gold/rice dilemma - if in doubt work food tiles, but until the rice is farmed the gold might make more sense... The rice says fresh water, which means that a farm gets +1 food, so the tooltip is a bit disingenuous.

I'm going food first, I didn't like the sight of 11 turns without growth.

- can Mthatum work the forest hill cottage?
- at Maserus CH's warrior is C1 isn't it? Has yours got a promo? If not then I'd avoid tempting him and have the worker build a road or something til he goes away...

Yes but I'm not sure how I rate -1h +2c, -1h due to rounding down the exp bonus on the worker, slower worker so slower overall growth. I'm not happy at the current research rate so maybe the +2c wins, really not sure.
CH's warrior is C1 but he could be C2 I wouldn't care, mine is 6xp with C2 and shock thanks to the barb pressure. I'd actually welcome an attack to get closer to the HE.

[Old Harry]

Thanks Krill - that's a better way of putting it.

Anyway, a quick micro plan for stone city.

eot69 complete the road, net the fish, 13/22 food
eot70 move to the SW forest, 18/22 food, 6/60 granary
eot71 chop 1/3, 23/22 food, 8/60 granary
eot72 chop 2/3, work fish + forest, 6/24 food, 11/60 granary
eot73 chop 3/3, 11/24 food, granary 34/60
eot74 move 1E, WHIP, 16/22 food, granary 66/60
eot75 road 1/2, 21/22 food, Barracks 28/60
eot76 road 2/2, 26/22 food (grows with 10 food saved), Barracks 32/60
Then on t77 you could whip the Barracks and overflow into a slow-built workboat. (Stacking whip unhappy a bit, but you've got no good tiles to work anyway...) The road on the stone is assuming you'll get Masonry at some point soon - you don't have it already do you? - if not then roading the forest W of the city or chopping the one SE into a worker are good moves too.

Finally - I meant this at Mthathum:


G'night!

[AdrienIer]

I've been reading your micro 3 times in a row without understanding anything. Why am I still up at 1:00 ? Wait that tile over there is 1/2/1 ? For some reason I thought it was 1/1/2. No idea why, it doesn't even make sense. Now time to sleep, goodnight to you too.

[AdrienIer]

Ok your micro seems good, no way to improve it IMO. WB after the barrack is a possibility but it would waste a few turns waiting for the border to pop. It could also scout for a turn or two before heading back to the clam. I've had masonry for ages, I had planned to get the marble hooked right after the corn with the worker that got barb killed a long time ago. I've had a look at the possible wonder builds, the great wall is probably useless here with only a few possible entry points and the mids can wait.