EitB 0009 Wishlist

[Tatan]

Right now, all the other religions give you some cool units, a good hero, and maybe even a civic to play around with. AV does all that, but also gives you a reliable, efficient form of collateral on top of the other goodies. RoF is fun, and makes AV unique, so I would not nerf the spell further--but I think AV in its current form is far too versatile compared to other religions.

[Katron]

And you get the Infernal Grimoire through AV as well. And Hyborem.

Regarding Order and AV, you can have both in the same city but there is always a chance for a bad event iirc. But I think many players are still hesitant to use Order because they think AV and Order don't mesh.

Very general thoughts about Erebus in the Balance PBEM XXI:

And if Order is not adopted this game I am seriously wondering... Every Order spread lowers the AC (for twice the normal amount because of Last Days) and demon fighting should be one of the best opportunities to use Order.

I actually don't have a problem with RoF, or AV. But I think the strenght and versatility of AV, coupled with the fact that many players probably still think AV = no Order, is one of the reasons why Order is so underused.

@ Bob: Yes, shocking that the Elves in XVIII used Leaves. And the almost winning Sidar did run AV. And XIII was a team-game where the winning team had no religion at all, while the other team was Khazad + Hippus, who unsurprisingly used RoK.


Regarding the events, I like the Golden Age solution as well. And it is weaker for spiritual civs, who already have one of the best traits in the game. But I wonder how you would balance differently flavored events for the religions.

[Mardoc]

@ Bob: Yes, shocking that the Elves in XVIII used Leaves. And the almost winning Sidar did run AV. And XIII was a team-game where the winning team had no religion at all, while the other team was Khazad + Hippus, who unsurprisingly used RoK.

I like that I'm described as almost-winning, despite not having a clear path by which I could have won. You missed XVI, probably because it just now ended; it's true I didn't use AV there either, but then I also won by building, not by warring.

Still, you've a point, we don't have a big enough sample size to really say one way or the other.

[uberfish]

I have to agree with Bob. Seriously, don't change the religions for now, the CoS/Infernal Pact price increase pushed AV significantly back in terms of time frame. Now that you can get mobility on catapults, most civs also have functioning collateral available a lot earlier in the game, if they need/want it.

I think getting a bunch of free crusaders at around the time in the game where you've just unlocked a whole lot of buildings is VERY GOOD, and not everyone has realized how much free stuff upfront Order gets yet.

[NobleHelium]

Yeah, we talked about the free crusader thing before and I thought it might be overpowered. But nobody actually uses Order, so.

[Katron]

So what to do? Make a Public Service Announcement about "Order: Hidden Greatness"?

[Bobchillingworth]

Maybe you should join the next game and show us yourself

[Tholal]

Every Order spread lowers the AC

Is this an EitB change? Because it does not work that way in base FFH.

[Sareln]

Is this an EitB change? Because it does not work that way in base FFH.

wasn't me...

[spellman]

I thought thematically Order is the response to AV. Sure they're militaristic and bloodthirsty killers empowered by some random deity, but that's only because you crazy AV people were messing with evil things that will bring about the end of the world! So we'll save it by subjugating everyone.

In that respect, does it make sense from a gameplay perspective for Order to be a decent choice, but only really come into its full potential if AV is being deployed? I understand currently, especially in MP, this isn't feasible because stuff like ToM or snowballing with AV would prevent this being a viable option.

Am I correctly reading the feel of things? Or am I just off my rocker.