[SPOILERS PB71]Krill: By the numbers, when the walls fell (on everyone else)

[Krill]

You are correct that my judgement that you were up to the task has turned out, in hindsight, to be rather poor.

I'm not concerned that my start, beyond the capital, is in fact weak. I am concerned that it is considered strong and how that reflects on the map as a whole given that the capital has only one food resource.

I happily accepted the lurker judgement that Totestra was not a viable map script. I would do the same for Tectonics or any other but we have two previous games run on the map script which seem to be working, hence the challenge that it may not be the mapscript which is the cause of the above issue, but the judgement involved in verifying a map as meeting the needs of the players.

[scooter]

It was specifically stated, no lots of forest plus cow starts, and this is a lots of forest plus cow start.

Incorrect, you said.

Start balance: plains cow and 15 forests versus double wet wheat is obviously not acceptable. This is probably the one area where "Whatever is needed" would be a reasonable?

This is not a plains cow, and you do not have any reason to believe your opponents have double wet wheat.


To be honest Krill, I think this game took so insanely long to get started because we all sort of thought you might do this and there was a ton of hesitation to give what was asked for as a result. You wanted a random map, you got one. You got a script you specifically said was fine, and now a full 10 days after signing off on the script, you're attacking the judgment of someone who gave you the script you said was fine. I legitimately do not know what you expected. You could have rolled maps yourself during these weeks and seen that you weren't willing to play it, but I guess you didn't?


FWIW, the only reason I even posted that original prompt to pry more instructions out was specifically because I thought you might do this when presented with what you asked for. I was pretty sure the other players were all happy to roll with whatever.

[Krill]

And just to be clear: Yes this capital is playable. Between EXP and the plains hill this start can go Mining>AH>BW, hook the gems first T14 and then rotate anticlockwise improving the cow T19 and then irrigating two flood plains T27 and T34, or even fit in a chop or two instead of farming dependent on the settler.

It was specifically stated, no lots of forest plus cow starts, and this is a lots of forest plus cow start.

Incorrect, you said.

Start balance: plains cow and 15 forests versus double wet wheat is obviously not acceptable. This is probably the one area where "Whatever is needed" would be a reasonable?

This is not a plains cow, and you do not have any reason to believe your opponents have double wet wheat.

Yes those are my exact words, and I do not know that others have wet wheat. My concern remains that other players have a significantly better (read: more capital food) because the surrounding land is so poor, significantly below the quality of PB64 and PB69.

To be honest Krill, I think this game took so insanely long to get started because we all sort of thought you might do this and there was a ton of hesitation to give what was asked for as a result. You wanted a random map, you got one. You got a script you specifically said was fine, and now a full 10 days after signing off on the script, you're attacking the judgment of someone who gave you the script you said was fine. I legitimately do not know what you expected. You could have rolled maps yourself during these weeks and seen that you weren't willing to play it, but I guess you didn't?

scooter, I do not want to micromanage each and every game set up. I could do it, but frankly I'd much prefer to be able to trust people. I also said:

4) I would prefer it if a map maker abandoned using a map script if it required heavy editing for another map script that doesn't.

It's not like I didn't listen to input, but this relies on the judgement of the map maker to have this freedom and make it work, hence my concern when that judgement is only now considered suspect and not previously.

FWIW, the only reason I even posted that original prompt to pry more instructions out was specifically because I thought you might do this when presented with what you asked for. I was pretty sure the other players were all happy to roll with whatever.

scooter, thank you for being proactive and trying to get the game started, that is appreciated.

This game was advertised as being in the style of PB64 and PB69, and that was meant to include level of terrain quality but I acknowledge that this was implied and not necessarily implicit.

Do you know what my expectation is? It's quite simple: Two food resources at a capital (like all of the starts in PB64 and PB69) and not to have swarthes of a map that are 1 food tiles and have no food resources (like PB64 and PB69). The former didn't happen but whatever, that's a reflection on map maker and map checker judgement. Regarding the latter...well, is it?

If giving implicit instructions is what is needed then in future that's what will happen.

[scooter]

This game was advertised as being in the style of PB64 and PB69, and that was meant to include level of terrain quality but I acknowledge that this was implied and not necessarily implicit.

Over a half dozen people have seen this map and generally feel it fits what was requested. You've seen just 22 tiles. I agree this capital BFC is a little weaker than the PB69 capital BFCs, but the capitals here have been relatively balanced to each other. Perfectly balanced, of course not, this isn't that game. I should not say this, but in the interest of hopefully saving this game from an early demise, I'll say multiple people definitely do not believe you have the worst start. I really can't say more than that.

Do you know what my expectation is? It's quite simple: Two food resources at a capital (like all of the starts in PB64 and PB69)

Seems like a good detail to include in advance of starting a game that you specifically advertised as a "highly random" game.

and not to have swarthes of a map that are 1 food tiles and have no food resources (like PB64 and PB69).

I don't know anything about PB64, but PB69 does have swaths of map with totally barren food. That map is tough. I even made a "why do people like this type of map" comment/joke in the lurker thread not that long ago. Go look at Nauf's land and tell me with a straight face you wouldn't have quit that too.


I promise I'm not trying to be a dick here - I'd sit in the lurker thread and just snark there if I wanted to see this game burn, but I don't. I don't think your preferences for a Civ game are well-aligned with this type of game. Mine aren't, so I didn't join. Just being honest here, you're going to have a tough time finding another map volunteer if you reject this and stay in this game. I would cautiously recommend you try to play and see what happens, but I also fear you may back out anyway in 50 turns or whatever. Maybe sleep on it.

[Amicalola]

This game was advertised as being in the style of PB64 and PB69, and that was meant to include level of terrain quality but I acknowledge that this was implied and not necessarily implicit.

Over a half dozen people have seen this map and generally feel it fits what was requested. You've seen just 22 tiles. I agree this capital BFC is a little weaker than the PB69 capital BFCs, but the capitals here have been relatively balanced to each other. Perfectly balanced, of course not, this isn't that game. I should not say this, but in the interest of hopefully saving this game from an early demise, I'll say multiple people definitely do not believe you have the worst start. I really can't say more than that.

Do you know what my expectation is? It's quite simple: Two food resources at a capital (like all of the starts in PB64 and PB69)

Seems like a good detail to include in advance of starting a game that you specifically advertised as a "highly random" game.

and not to have swarthes of a map that are 1 food tiles and have no food resources (like PB64 and PB69).

I don't know anything about PB64, but PB69 does have swaths of map with totally barren food. That map is tough. I even made a "why do people like this type of map" comment/joke in the lurker thread not that long ago. Go look at Nauf's land and tell me with a straight face you wouldn't have quit that too.


I promise I'm not trying to be a dick here - I'd sit in the lurker thread and just snark there if I wanted to see this game burn, but I don't. I don't think your preferences for a Civ game are well-aligned with this type of game. Mine aren't, so I didn't join. Just being honest here, you're going to have a tough time finding another map volunteer if you reject this and stay in this game. I would cautiously recommend you try to play and see what happens, but I also fear you may back out anyway in 50 turns or whatever. Maybe sleep on it.

PB64 also had swathes of non-food-resource land. Some remained unsettled until nearly the end of the game (250?).

[Krill]

I appreciate your candour scooter, and I know you aren't being a dick

I am going to sleep now, but I want to be clear: with this capital I expect I have the best surroundings and that scares me for everyone elses' sake.

I have seen naufs land in PB69. I think that will be better than what I have here. Keep in mind there is a flood plain valley here (fog gazing shows the river extends north and east and this mapscript tends to produce large such valleys) and without food resources unhealthiness makes it untenable. With food resources it should be great...but then we end up back at tectonics and the worry, based of extremely limited information as you say, that this is the best area and everyone else is even worse off.

[scooter]

Keep in mind there is a flood plain valley here (fog gazing shows the river extends north and east and this mapscript tends to produce large such valleys) and without food resources unhealthiness makes it untenable.

I am obligated to remind you that you have a trait which provides +2 health and a cheap building that provides +2 health more, and that building is on a tech I imagine you may prioritize given all the forests.


(Not intended to be a veiled comment about what is or isn’t in the fog. I don’t really remember off the top of my head.)

[Krill]

[Krill]

Good hut outcomes:

<GoodyType>GOODY_HIGH_GOLD</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_MAP</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_MAP</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_WARRIOR</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_WARRIOR</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_SCOUT</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_EXPERIENCE</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_EXPERIENCE</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_HEALING</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_TECH</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_TECH</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_WEAK</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_WEAK</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_WEAK</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>
<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>

Turn 5:




I think that is Pin.

[Krill]

Popped Myst from the hut, and it is Pindicator over there, his borders popped end of turn and one of us got a head start on espionage points but I don't understand from the interface who benefitted.