[no players] Lurker Thread

[Gaspar]

One thing to keep in mind is that Byzantium excepted, this era of warfare greatly favors the defender if they are at relative tech parity. While that's always true, ramming Knights into walled cities with longbows/pikes is usually a recipe for failure. Even without Iron, Maces behind walls will have odds on all but the best promoted Knights. When you add cats to the equation which due to speed the defender will usually have but the attacker will usually not... essentially what I'm saying is that I don't think Mackoti can bring enough pain to really throw novice/seven, because they are exceptional players.

I hope I'm wrong though, solely because the game will be pretty fascinating if NS7 get dragged back to the pack. I am a huge fan of this sort of map just for this reason - lots of places for potential conflict, lots of strategic objectives, etc.

[Ceiliazul]

We decided to offer Mackoti Ariel + 100g for peace. Any bets on whether he'll take it?

I think he will.

He asked for bets. I bet that when Mack refuses, NS7 finally pulls the fire alarm. They're going to delay slavery another 3 turns? I bet (if Gaspar is right and they're gonna beat this off) they swap to slavery next turn. If they dont, I bet ganymede falls.

I'm a noob, when's the last time Seven was in a fight for his core cities? how about Novice?

[Gaspar]

I'm a noob, when's the last time Seven was in a fight for his core cities? how about Novice?

Seven lost one core-ish city to luddite in PBEM19 IIRC, but to say he was in a fight for it is heavily overstating. Beyond that, they've faced no real pressure in any of their other game. All the war for Seven in PBEM6 was on his terms away from his home, there was no war in PBEM11, all the war for novice in PBEM13 was them rofl-stomping Pegasus/TT, there's been no war of significance for novice in PBEM17 and I'd assume you're familiar with PBEM19, but again all the fighting was on Seven's terms.

Ultimately, I'd say that matters little. They've both shown competence at offensive war which I would generally say is harder than defensive war, given Civ 4's native biases. Don't mean to sound too contrarian - I do think they overestimated their strength vs. mackoti - the difference between mackoti and other opponents is that he won't allow himself to be easily bullied. The Galleons scare Yuris, so he attacks Fierce. The Galleons scare mackoti so he builds a billion Caravels. Its a question of experience.

Should be fun to watch however it plays out.

[Square Leg]

It is a difficult situation for mackoti in that for all he knows, he accepts the deals and in 10t he is at war anyway with a more prepared enemy. To say he can just go off and attack his southern neighbour instead isn't quite right as he will need to keep some sort of garrison to avoid that.

The city isn't that great-a-deal anyway as unless he keeps a strong garrison, it would fall on the 1st turn of any war.

I think if I were him I would decline the deal and ask for more short term benefits from them instead - the type of benefits that matter in a 10t period - GOLD! If they decline I'd just attack.

[regoarrarr]

It is a difficult situation for mackoti in that for all he knows, he accepts the deals and in 10t he is at war anyway with a more prepared enemy. To say he can just go off and attack his southern neighbour instead isn't quite right as he will need to keep some sort of garrison to avoid that.

The city isn't that great-a-deal anyway as unless he keeps a strong garrison, it would fall on the 1st turn of any war.

I think if I were him I would decline the deal and ask for more short term benefits from them instead - the type of benefits that matter in a 10t period - GOLD! If they decline I'd just attack.

I agree - getting locked into 10t of peace when you've already built up a huge army is probably not a good idea

[Ceiliazul]

I think you should attack NS7 instead.

Hooray for Lewwyn, and bloodthirsty lurkers everywhere! Even if the attack never comes, it'd be nice to see what Yuri on the topic.

[oledavy]

Hooray for Lewwyn, and bloodthirsty lurkers everywhere! Even if the attack never comes, it'd be nice to see what Yuri on the topic.

Meh, Yuris is still not changing his mind. It's a real pity, he could inflict real damage at this point if he strikes from the other side. NS7 has had enough trouble fending off Mack's initial strike, I think a dozen cataphracts from the other side would crack their defenses. Then again, if I had a militarily weak neighbor on my doorstep, I might go after them too instead of the runaway. I just feel like he's passing up a real chance to stop NS7 before they get rifles and communism and become 10x scarier.

I don't see Mack becoming a runaway in this situation. Depending on how fast they can absorb Fierce's lands, I see Luddicator becoming the next potential runaway in this game. It all rests on how long and bloody the Mackoti - NS7 war turns out.

Lastly, I really with we could have gotten some reporting from the Sian/Fierce War. It sounds like Fierce gave him an absolute beating, and I would have liked to see what happened.

Kudos to Fierce for sticking this game out and going down guns blazing

[kjn]

Yeah, Mackoti doesn't seem to have any real plans beyond a quickie raid. All he has accomplished strategically with his movements so far is making NS7 having an easier border to defend (since Dione doesn't have to be defended anymore). He can't predict a sudden mass production of pikes (which in fact is happening). And with his failure to destroy the NS7 fleet, most of his core cities (and his iron) are exposed to raids.

I think Mackoti is making what is probably the most common mistake in 4X-games, that of not following up an aggressive move properly. And any advantage he has right now due to knights is transient and can disappear at almost any time.

Yes, and attack by YNL could probably hurt NS7 a lot, but the cataphracts would still have to contend with pikes supported by catapults. Doable, but the border area is a pain to get through with lots of jungle. And NS7s island holdings have almost developed to the point that they are a second core now, which they can't touch in any real way.

Yes, I'd like at least one more reliable reporting team (though Luddite, YNL, and NS7 are great!).

[NobleHelium]

Heh, Sian not clearing the jungle from the ivory (wtf?) is paying off.

[NobleHelium]

Wonder if luddicator has the sense to give mackoti the gold...