[SPOILERS - PBEM17] darrelljs - Elizabeth of Egypt

[NobleHelium]

Okay, so I didn't remember there was a prolonged open border agreement in place. In retrospect I don't think you should have offered such generous terms, especially because you were the one who offered them to start with. At least if you're going to be tempted to renege them later on.

This also shows how much Pitboss 4 would be different if it had actual islands...

[Krill]

You could argue that deal never got agreed by both parties because of the lack of agreement over clause three. I'm not gonna argue that though.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

You could argue that deal never got agreed by both parties because of the lack of agreement over clause three. I'm not gonna argue that though.

Didn't you just, though?

[Krill]

I stated that there is an argument, not that I'm using it. I agree with Darrell what we've done is low, but that isn't going to stop me from thinking it is the right course of action.

[Gaspar]

Well, not pointless, but we all see the writing on the wall. You could consider this the other extreme to PB4.

That said we'd always keep on playing, and we do/did have plans to help deal with NoSpace. For instance, if we'd declared war in 10 turns, would it make a difference? In 20 turns? It's more effective to do it now, especially when it leads to a dead GM.



No contest...although Darrell is trying to escape that label and blame me, which isn't entirely unfair.

Actually, I'd argue its exactly the same as PB4, as you all made various agreements with the runaway team not realizing they were a runaway. The difference is that in PB4 we're keeping our word, even to our detriment.

In your instance, I don't see how you could possibly argue that you didn't break an agreement other than the most extreme lawyering because your city on nospace's continent is sitting there, testament to it, while they got all of what, 10T of OB from you?

Not that my opinion matters, but I wouldn't see a problem if you renegotiated diplomatically, nor do I have a problem with the dogpile itself. Shoot's killing nospace's GM is pretty much unconscionable though, and worse than anything some of the other players with bad diplomatic reputations around here have ever done. Of course, you'll all skate away without being discussed in the terms they are because you're native English speakers, whereas say Serdoa and mackoti can't lawyer in English very well.

[darrelljs]

In your instance, I don't see how you could possibly argue that you didn't break an agreement other than the most extreme lawyering because your city on nospace's continent is sitting there, testament to it, while they got all of what, 10T of OB from you?

The clause we broke was #2:

2. Egypt and Straight Talkers will sign open borders. To prevent Egypt from joining in an embargo, open borders should be for an extended period of time, say 50 turns. In addition, Straight Talkers will be given an auto-renew option. If this option is exercised, Straight Talkers agree to balance out commerce income with a gold exchange. Egypt can conditionally waive the gold exchange requirement for renewal, at their discretion, either as a token of friendship or in exchange for other considerations to be agreed upon at the time of renewal.

In addition I've stated in chats to nospace on more than one occasion that I would not join a dogpile on them, and I also stated that I would try and find some way to make them "happy" over settling their tentacle. Its particularly heinous because I've given the impression of being trustworthy, but when push came to shove, I wasn't. Now, all that said they did not accept clause #3, we were certainly in a race to settle that spot, which we won.

Of course, you'll all skate away without being discussed in the terms they are because you're native English speakers, whereas say Serdoa and mackoti can't lawyer in English very well.

I never would have suspected Serdoa wasn't a native speaker, his English is perfect. At the very least I offer this and this as counter examples. Be warned, the first link is a very mild PB4 spoiler, and the second link is a very mild FFH PBEM2 spoiler.

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Krill,

I've been thinking about this quite a bit. I know you're going to flip, but I would like to do the following:

1. Offer them a cease fire.
2. Gift them our cities on their tentacle.
3. Re-declare war.

Its not really honoring the original deal, but I think its suitable compensation for breaking the deal. #3 is to avoid breaking our word to the other dogpilers, but I have no intention of making any non-defensive moves against them. I'm really sorry, I know you've put almost as much time into this game as I have, but I just don't want to play this way . I'd be willing to turn the game over to you if you prefer.

Darrell

[Gold Ergo Sum]

You could argue that deal never got agreed by both parties because of the lack of agreement over clause three. I'm not gonna argue that though.

You know, I went back over the exchanges in question with my lawyer hat on and I don't really see a valid argument for one reason:

Sounds good :-).

See, novice's response was definitely a counter-offer, and not an acceptance of Darrell's offer because he modified the terms. But then Darrell, IMO, clearly accepted those terms by saying "Sounds good." Thus novice's terms became the agreement between the parties, despite the modification of clause #3, and that agreement included a proposed 50 turns of OBs.

Now, the clause didn't include an NAP, so someone might argue that you could declare war. But considering peace is a necessary pre-requisite of OBs, I think peace is an understood condition of the agreement.

[Ilios]

Wow, I'm glad I'm not Darrell right now...

But seriously, I'd feel shitty too, because it was a pretty dastardly move...

[Krill]

Krill,

I've been thinking about this quite a bit. I know you're going to flip, but I would like to do the following:

1. Offer them a cease fire.
2. Gift them our cities on their tentacle.
3. Re-declare war.

Its not really honoring the original deal, but I think its suitable compensation for breaking the deal. #3 is to avoid breaking our word to the other dogpilers, but I have no intention of making any non-defensive moves against them. I'm really sorry, I know you've put almost as much time into this game as I have, but I just don't want to play this way . I'd be willing to turn the game over to you if you prefer.

Darrell

Can we put our warriors in a galley to take the city back?