[SPOILERS - PBEM17] darrelljs - Elizabeth of Egypt

[darrelljs]

Okay, now for an analysis of our opponents, from yet another snippet in my chat with Krill:

me: rego is now pointing out that we have the 4 PBEM5 players, but that my team has the loser as the driver
That's a tough one to respond to
Krill: the driver just has to do as he is told by the conductor
me: Between rego being in the game and not playing well in pbem4 (man I can't believe we are up to 17), I am highly motivated to not suck
Krill: or pilots get directed by air traffic control
me: yes yes
You developed some bad habits in pbem2 I fear
Krill: This is looking like a really good game
yeah
me: Yeah I think so
I ilke all invovled, the setup, etc.
should be interesting
Krill: Definitely glad that I'm not playing by myself; much better to have novice and Space in after they have demolished everyone in 13
me: shoot did well in 8 as well
Krill: I developed many bad habits in PBEM2 that were a consequence of lack of focus and no rthym, same as happens to me in SP player
yeah
me: I don't recall lurkign Kyan, ever
was he in pbem4 rookie game?
Krill: and Kyan has destroyed evveryone in 4greens and again in PBEM12
and did well from a crap start in PB3
me: I probably have the worst MP resume, actually
I had a nice start in PBEM2, that's about it
PB2 was a disaster
PBEM4 and PBEM5 were disasters
FFH2 might end up okay, despite the terrible starting location

I can't say he didn't warn me, back when I first asked if he wanted to be my dedicated lurker:

Krill: you sure you could put up with me?
me: I have experience with it
Krill: gets worse if I'm a lurker
you got no where to hide

In the next post, which is going to have to wait a bit, I'll give my $0.02 on everyone's picks and what approach I think they might take.

Darrell

[Krill]

Great, I've been compared to Dick Cheney. I suppose that is better than being compared to Dan Quayle, right? BTW, who wants to get shot?

[T-hawk]

not playing well in pbem4

PBEM4 and PBEM5 were disasters

If you're going to leak spoiler info like that, we PBEM4 neighbors of yours have every right to take advantage of it. Or else you're really good at misdirecting me and Kylearan away from your hidden stack of 20 tanks. :neenernee

[darrelljs]

If you're going to leak spoiler info like that, we PBEM4 neighbors of yours have every right to take advantage of it. Or else you're really good at misdirecting me and Kylearan away from your hidden stack of 20 tanks. :neenernee

I think you can safely assume I don't have 20 tanks lying around .

Okay, so here is how I would approach the game if I was the other players.

regoarrarr: He's not FIN, which is going to be a problem. On the flip side the two best low cost buildings in the game are Granary and Forge. He's the only IND leader, he has Terraces to save the cost of Monuments, and I expect he'll expand quite rapidly. The smart play is sling Metal Casting with The Oracle. Half cost Forges, The Colossus and Tiremes are pretty nice. The Great Lighthouse is the other wonder to pursue, of course. I expect he'll grab an early religion as well. All in all, I think he's setup to have a really strong start, but he might struggle mid game.

Shoot the Moon: I think Pacal is a great builder leader, in SP he's the only FIN leader I really enjoy. Well, him and Mansa Musa. In MP EXP is even more important. I am surprised he did not take Carthage or Vikings as his civ (I'm actually having buyer's remorse a bit), especially if we have lots of happy resources.

Kyan: The second fastest FIN leader in the game, on this map maybe even faster than Pacal? The Dutch are a great civ on a water map obviously, I love the UU. I think by the time the UB comes along the game is most likelly decided, but if not its enough by itself to put you over the top. Kyan picked last but I think he ended up with arguably the best combo (restricted at that!).

Novice: For a builder game, India has the best UU, and this game starts off as a builder game essentially. I'm not a huge fan of the UB, but that's not the point of India, is it? Sury is the fastest leader in the game on top of that, so you've got Fast Workers with fast traits = smoking start. Like regoarrarr, the question is can they build enough of an advantage to sustain them through the mid game? I think its very likely they get The Great Lighthouse.

Okay, next and final post before the map is made available, I'll talk a bit more about Elizabeth of Egypt. On the surface I think its the weakest combo in the game, but I hope to show that its got a lot of potential .

Darrell

[NobleHelium]

Let's see how you do with that one-update-per-turn promise. :neenernee

[darrelljs]

Let's see how you do with that one-update-per-turn promise. :neenernee

Hey, consider it a fait accompli...even if I have to mimic pocketbeetle and lag several turns . Okay, so let me discuss Elizabeth of Egypt.

First off, the map and settings are clearly geared for a builder game, making FIN an obvious trait. We start with an entire continent of lush virgin land to ourselves, lacking even barbarians to slow us down. Since the settlers start in the center of the continent, it will be very difficult to establish a beachhead on another player's continent in the ancient/classical eras. For this reason, I think the traditionally strong builder traits of EXP and CRE, while still powerful, lose a bit of luster. No doubt they still provide strong turn advantage, but with land entitlement set from the beginning speed loses some importance. The wild card is:

Map settings:

• Intermediate islands between continents

A few islands placed for flavor a la pbem8 is one thing, but if a significant number of tiles are in these tiny islands, that could really favor the fast traits. Now, I think that is unlikely as we've asked for a custom continents game, but it's a definite possibility .

In SP, at least the way I play, PHI is one of the top three traits along with SPI and CRE. However, the main reason is you need to bulb and trade techs to keep up with the AIs and their ridiculous bonuses. In MP, PHI is typically a second tier trait, especially without tech trading . With this game setup I think it moves up into the top tier along with EXP and CRE. If you lurked PB2, you saw Elizabeth of India jump out to a huge early GNP lead based largely on a fast Academy in their capital. From that point on they didn't leverage PHI much (largely due to metagame reasons ), but just that one advantage propelled them into a commanding lead.

To really leverage PHI, Egypt or Arabia makes the most sense. Chat with Krill on Arabia:

Krill: Arabia, no agri, expensive UB for purposes of getting Theo, needs writing
me: Arabia is nice, I really like the Madrassa with PHI, but too tough on the religion and no Agr anyway so I can't start with it.

The Arabia techs suck. I already decided not to go for a relgion so Mysticism has no value. They both come with The Wheel, but Egypt has Agriculture which let's me tech Animal Husbandry if I need to, and gives early access to Pottery. I really like the Madrassa. The extra 2 culture isn't bad, but one building that gives FOUR specialists is a FE economists wet dream. If only Saladin was still SPI/PHI . Still, we can have an Obelisk up well before turn 40, dozens of turns before we'll have access to the Madrassa. The ability to have a Great Prophet by turn 50 opens up lots of possibilities . I like Krill's idea to pursue Judaism, bulbing Theocracy if we lose the race. Something else to keep in mind:

Krill: Something for you to think about
There are 2 CRE civs and Inca in PBEM17
the only player that will compete with you fo Henge is Moogle
me: Yeah...your earlier IM had gotten me to think abot it
Pacal of Ottomans
Its interesting
I'm not sure Henge is the right build for either of us
It would be nice if a strong second city had lots of forests to chop it out
Krill: fwiw wait to see if there is stone nearby, if there is it's possible to get Henge in 1 turn with no risk of loss. Otherwise likely to need 4, maybe 5 forest chops and some overflow to get it safely.

Stonehenge + Priest + PHI = 10 GPP/turn. We'd get our first Great Prophet in 7 turns and our second in 13 turns (20 total). Of course, we'd then need 17 turns to get a Great Scientist for the Academy, but everyone else still needs 12 turns. I'm really looking forward to leveraging PHI in this game, it should be a lot of fun. I mean, leveraging FIN is boring, just drop down a lot of cottages. Yay. But PHI? That opens up lots of creative possibilities .

Darrell

[Krill]

If you lurked PB2, you saw Elizabeth of India jump out to a huge early GNP lead based largely on a fast Academy in their capital. From that point on they didn't leverage PHI much (largely due to metagame reasons ), but just that one advantage propelled them into a commanding lead.

Not entirely true. Playing as any other non-PHI leader would have gotten the Academy 6 turns slower if playing in the exact same way; a CRE civ wouldn't even have been that much slower due to the faster lib.

In this case, the reasons for getting into the lead multitudinous, but PHI isn't high up the list.

[Krill]

I think the best way to describe the Lizzie of Egypt choice is while it is the slowest, it is also the most flexible for a teching game, and will be able to afford the expansion the best out of all of the chosen combinations. The aims are to get a shrine out fast to help fund the expansion, and missionaries are the best way to expand borders short of a cheap Henge build, or to get an academy and focus on getting an uber-capital and currency. I pretty much always prefer the shrine though, but with Lizzie in this game it's feasible to get 2 religions, a shrine and an academy by t75...the hard part is keeping up in expansion.

[plako]

Your start:

[Krill]

Standard, Prince, Toroidal, Quick.

Just what I wanted to see.

FWIW, settling hte plains hill means the corn would be hooked exactly the same time as settling in place, the rice could be hooked 1 turns faster than the corn (compared to settling in place) meaning hte corn would overtake in food growth on eot t16.