[Spoilers - Flauros (sunrise089 and darrelljs)]

[darrelljs]

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Long chat with Ilios. I didn't really get much from him but the highlights:

1. He thinks Serdoa is mad at us for only giving 240H of units, but he wouldn't say whether he thought he was going to attack us.

2. Apparently he is getting AV next turn, and adopting it . Not sure if he is staying there though.

3. He and Amelia are not going to fight.

4. He did not want to sign a NAP.

Our power finally pulled even with Serdoa, and his units did move away. We are still pretty far from Ilios. It would be the height of folly for him to attack us, but...probably best to be safe. One more round of Vampires at least.

Darrell

[sunrise089]

Yep, only 240h of units. Man did Amelia and Uberfish and the other two civs contribute so many more and so much earlier than us!

[NobleHelium]

That's a lot of gold you've stockpiled there.

[darrelljs]

Its enough to get to AV...which would be great if, uh, Ilios wasn't going to get the tech next turn .

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Exchange with Serdoa:

Nah, that NAP from the CoW-thing was I think 15 turns after it ends. Now, we expected to win, but we didn't, so I would have interpreted it as running as soon as you had no forces left in his lands. Anyway, does that mean you do not want to get one? If so I'll move my forces back south for defense purposes.

I've been going back and forth on how to answer this e-mail, and I think blunt honesty is probably the best approach. We've been told that you essentially sold us out to Ilios. It was quite worriesome, as your army survived somewhat intact while ours was obliterated. You made peace with him without discussing it with us. Apparently you or someone turned Amelia against us, so now we have two fronts to worry about. We've also been told that you are not trustworthy. Now, I don't believe in holding actions against someone from another game, and further I don't know if what we were told is even true. On the same token, I don't want to be an idiot about things.

For exampe, let's say we sign peace with you, and you allow Ilios to come in at us through your lands. Now we have no way to retaliate if we have a NAP! I caught Ilios in a chat but he was very coy about yoru relationship, and point blank refused a NAP! We found it very hard to understand why, as he seemed to have more to gain from one than us unless he was going to attack. Amelia has Saverous and about 6 Swordsman on our SW border right now, if you were to move in with your stack it would be very difficult to cover both fronts. Remember, unlike you our military was completely obliterated and we just don't feel safe right now. So, I guess what I'm saying is I'd like to think we've been wokring together in good faith, but I also think we need to come up with some kind of arrangement that guarantees our mutual security.

Is it fair to hold someone's actions in another game against them?

Darrell

[NobleHelium]

Well, I don't know what actions in another game you're talking about, so it's hard to comment there. I do think it wasn't a good idea to tell him that Amelia has a small force on your border though.

[Gaspar]

Exchange with Serdoa:

Is it fair to hold someone's actions in another game against them?

Darrell

IMO, yes. The only value NAPs hold is theoretical - if someone's word isn't worth anything, you have to take that into account. While I think its cheesy to carry a grudge from another game over (i.e. you DOW'ed me in another game at an inconvenient time, I declare jihad in this one) and I also think its cheesy to hold someone's skill against them (i.e. Player X is really good at the game, so lets 5 v 1 warrior choke them to snuff them in the cradle) ultimately, someone's balance of actions can't help but color your reactions towards them in the future. If you don't take that into account, you're just being stupid, in my opinion.

[darrelljs]

Good points Gaspar...problem is after the latest exchange I have some homework to do on his reputation . I am spending too much time between my three active games right now, but I'll try and do it.

Spoilers for any game Serdoa is in (I think):

I'll be honest with you as well. That I made peace with Ilios without discussing with you is not exactly true. I was told by you even that peace should be easy to get as Ilios could not easily attack me. I did not discuss terms and stuff with you though, but I did not really see that as necessary. And I also did not get the feeling that you are even interested in that whole conflict anymore. It failed and I would be the one who had to take the counterattack, not you. Great for you, bad for me. I understand why you would not want to get any more involved but I got the feeling that my "allies" all decided to turn their backs on me. So I was pissed.

Having said that, I have not discussed about you with Amelia ever. I haven't talked with her at all after she backed out of that "joint" attack on Ilios. I have talked with Ilios about you though. Because he was worried that someone would attack him through my lands. So I had to agree that nobody is allowed to move through my lands if he intends to attack him. I had to agree to that and offer stuff I was not happy about (like that happy-deal I told you) but had to do it because I was alone and had no chance to win against Ilios. And if I look at the demos or score then I have clearly lost the most of all of us and uberfish came out ahead of all of us.But I am not trustworthy? Is that because I invested the most in this war? Or because I had enough troops near our border that I could have easily taken one or two cities from you but didn't do it, no matter our NAP status?

I really don't know who told you that I am not trustworthy and in which context or which game. I was loyal in PBEM7 to scooter. I wasn't to TT because he lied to me. I am loyal in PBEM10 to my allies as well. In PBEM14 and 16 as well as FFH2PBEM5 I have no allies. So really, the only one who has a right to say I am not trustworthy is Cyneheard in PBEM10 because I in a way lied to him. But he was never my ally either. Not to say I lie to everyone I am not allied with but I surely wouldn't feel as bad telling a lie to someone who I never was allied with or who I even fought some turns before. Though even then, I have never broke any NAPs with anyone.

Anyway, if you want a deal, just let me know what you want. Formalize it as much as you want as to be sure that I cannot betray you.

Hmm...well I had a brief exchange with Amelia and it seems to confirm what you said. Would you be willing to grant a similar clause to the one you gave Ilios (i.e. no allowing your lands to be used as a staging ground)? What duration were you thinking. I'll talk to sunrise assuming the answers are "yes" and "about 50t" and see what he thinks.

What do you think sunrise089? Right now after this next round of vamps completes I think we have great security. We need to pick a tech target, with three (!) civs racing for AV, and Ilios landing it in the RoK holy city, I'm not sure what to think. Any thoughts there? Uberfish built The Great Library. He might be the next tall poppy.

Darrell

P.S. I plan on doing an empire overview every "decade", so next one is on t115 in 5 turns.

[NobleHelium]

Er, you might want to segment part of Serdoa's reply there, it kind of has spoilers.