darrelljs Wrote:Yeah, I know . I am heading towards Ashen Veil as we speak. If you want beeline vamps, sometimes you have to wait for a religion. I'm doing pretty good techwise so I think I will be sacrifing the weak in about 2 turns.
Darrell
Hmm - or will you be sacrificing the weak? Sacrifing sounds interesting though. I imagine a massive hand coming down from the sky holding a frying pan and little bodies screaming as they sizzle away...
Serdoa Wrote:Neither. I did tell him that I do not see our NAP any longer as valid. Attacking me was his decision. I did put up the best defenses I could though, in all cities, and will do so for the time being.
That decision was done to be fair to everyone Darrell, not to spite you. I got peace and more importantly this NAP from him after our failed war by offering to attack you. If not he could have easily taken cities at that time. Though I never attacked you and instead started losing everything. It felt not fair in my opinion to still bind him to a NAP when I did not hold up even the slighest to the deal I had offered him. Hope you understand me or at least can accept that decision.
Darrell Wrote:The reply satisfies :-). You've acted honorably in this matter.
So that's interesting, Ilios basically said the NAP was dead because Serdoa didn't leave up to another part of the deal, namely attacking me. Serdoa agreed with him and therefore I would say Ilios is okay with attacking Serdoa. So what do I see on the Serdoa front?
So he has withdrawn to Hexam with a still very respectable stack. Here is what I see when I Hawk over Ilios:
Clearly its a raze and replace mission. Its highly tempting to kill that very strong Stonewarden, but I think I'll give diplomacy a chance. Exchange with Ilios:
Ilios Wrote:"My troops will in no way join any offensive moves into Calabim."
How do my actions breach our NAP?
My reply:
Darrell Wrote:You razed a city that was clearly about to be mine, I call that a naked act of aggression! After sleeping on it, I decided not to respond in game. I saw with my Hawk that you had a Settler ready to plant in the newly created neutral zone between our two nations. I uge you to hold off planting a new city until we can come to a settlement over this unfortunate situation. I am open to suggestions.
I guess that's why you sleep on these things. If I had played last night, my white hot rage would have gotten the better of me no doubt . So, hopefully things get worked out. I ended my turn with the same move/summon skeletons pattern as before:
I should be able to take Hexam and Guell both next turn.
I may be missing something but I don't read the Serdoa/Ilios exchange as Ilios asking to be or even suggesting he should be released from his NAP but rather Serdoa just coming out and offering it.
IMHO Serdoa has treated us very poorly this game. It's a classic case of what I call the "teamspeak curse" in MP Civ and LoL - where the guy you have easy communication with is a more convenient punching bag than the actual guilty but unavailable party.
Let's review our interactions with Serdoa:
1) He tried to capture our city with Loki
2) We contributed by far the most support to Serdoa's planned invasion
3) Serdoa made grave tactical errors, including RB tactical error #1 - randomly revealing your invading stack
4) Serdoa sold us out to Ilios for peace
5) Serdoa lied to us about his deal with Ilios after he changed his mind, then when he didn't like the way the war went (after saying he was going to invade us and moving his units up!) he offered Ilios the chance to snatch a city and raze+replant it.
Sheesh, where's Gold Ergo Sum when I need him? :neenernee
What seems like a very honest e-mail in from Iliois:
Ilios Wrote:I'll try to be as honest as possible.
I did not expect Serdoa to fold so quickly (at least, until I saw the number of Vampires you had, and saw what Serdoa had in defense).
I just could not allow you to take over the entirety of Serdoa's land. We might as well end the game and call you the winner.
Yes, I can understand you are angry because I "stole" the city from under your nose, but try to look at it from my perspective.
And I can assure you, the other players (at least, those that matter) are looking on in dread as you dismember the Balseraphs in a couple of turns.
I may be the leader in points, but you get to be the "rogue nation" in this game.
Which is why you didn't get much of a response to your message to the two other remaining contenders. (I gather)
And lastly, let's not forget you attacked me, unprovoked, earlier.
I'm not sure what you want me to suggest as a solution.
I'd like to found a city where the settler you saw is currently located.
I'd like to raze another Balseraph city that is very close to my borders (well, I don't really care who razes it really), and found a new one 2N.
Yes, you did most of the heavy lifting in this war, but let's not forget that I killed more than 25 Balseraph Warriors in your ill-timed dogpile (including a C5, Heroic S 2, Heroic D 2 one that could have caused you some trouble).
Calabim Wrote:Ilios, your reply rings true and makes me feel quite a bit better.
I'm looking at the map now and will send you something shortly.
Followed by this:
Calabim Wrote:Okay, that site is not really great for me, but I can still squeeze a city in the gap left over.
Is the other city Guadium? I will raze that city, but prefer that we try and do the same thing as on the south, i.e. you settle one a bit closer to your borders than the spot you are talking about, to leave me room to squeeze a city in between.
On the subject of me being the "rogue nation", I prefer the moniker "tall poppy". Serdoa planned on attacking me (at your directive, remember?) so its not like I was betraying a close friend. Just because our combat actions have been very successful doesn't mean we are rouges :-).
Then we had the following chat:
Quote:Ilios: uh, i never told serdoa to attack you
just wanted to make that clear Ilios: Darrell: He claims you did
Honestly, it doesn't matter, I don't hold it against you if you did since we were at war. Ilios: sneaky bastard...
wow
he really is something Darrell: I was warned by several people about him. To be fair, he's been very cordial in our communications. But that doesn't mean he's been honest.
Not a huge fan of where your settler is because of the bones, but looking at it I don't see much other option if we are both going to squeeze a city in there
I think there is more flexibility in the northern region Ilios: i'd need to have a look ingame Ilios: check out your mailbox Darrell: wow Ilios: that was immediately after destroying your stack Darrell: sunrise089 was right then, and I'm easily duped Ilios: i don't think i'll have the turn tonight
but if memory serves me correctly, moving the northern site would lose both it's food resources
but like i said, I need to check ingame Darrell: gimme a sec
I am not sure that we are talking about the same location, I guess can you take a screenshot next time you open a save (even an old one) and sned me the city you want razed, and where you want to plant? Ilios: sure Ilios: hey, we might even get that wheat trade going some day Darrell:
I have to say originally I thought you broke your NAP with serdoa and me both with your actions Ilios: but let me ask you
honestly Darrell: I am glad I did not play the turn and slept on it first Ilios: yeah
me too
would have been more entertaining for the lurkers though Darrell: They were asking me what I was going to do in my thread
that stonewarden was wounded too Ilios: same here
you'd have killed one stonewarden? Darrell: well, it was in anger if I did, because he razed MY city Ilios: no he didn't Darrell: how'd he get wounded then?
oh, you mean it wasn't mine :P Ilios: a tiger sprung out of thin air
killed every last man woman and child
and disappeared Darrell: treacherous bastards all of them Ilios: hungry mostly Darrell: serdoa must have gotten another warrior then Ilios: he's got a thing for warriors Darrell: well, he's been building lots of swords lately, which also don't seem to fare very well. Eventually he's going to run out of room Ilios: yeah
so, tell me
who initiated the cow? Darrell: give me one second Darrell: man I've posted a lot lately
trying to find the post on this subject Ilios: i look forward to reading your thread Darrell: yeah Ilios: you did put some pictures right? Darrell: I was gonig to link the post to you, but it has some other things in it that I can't really disclose
So I am going to summarize
Basically, the are:
1. We did send the e-mail out to talk about how to implement it, but the CoW was already decided on via chats prior to that time.
2. Amelia was the most reluctant, I think she just wants to be left alone.
3. We complained that we were not getting anything out of it, but we were still willing participants because otherwise we thought you would run away with the game.
Last paragraph of the post was:
Anyway, that's not really the point. Assuming Serdoa really did blame the whole thing on us, the problem isn't whether it was true or not. The problem is how can we trust someone when we think we are cooperating together, and then they turn around and sell us out at the first sign of trouble? Now again, we have no proof Serdoa did this, but at the least we have to be very careful until we can confirm or deny it. Ilios: haha
well, you all did slow me down Darrell: So if you are assiging blame, maybe 40% for us and seroda and 20% for amelia? Ilios: that moment when amelia realised she was all alone against my armies
... Darrell: the biggest thing we got out of it, as it turned out, was serdoa didn't use his production edge on us until we got vampires Ilios: golden Darrell: well, not all alone...you were still at war withme
we had a brief talk after serdoa made peace without consulting us Ilios: which army wa s that
? Darrell: yes yes Ilios: anyway, i kind of felt that amelia was not really into it
or she wouldn't have stumbled into the war after it was effectively finished
too bad really Darrell: the whole thing was a predictable fiasco Ilios: i couldv'e used that axe... Darrell: the axe is sweet
she still has saverous on my border with it
bit nervous about that Ilios: you're kidding, right? Darrell: only a little
I'm a big scaredy cat maybe
she'd be foolish to attack with her paper military Ilios: yup Darrell: I have no idea why you haven't attacked her yet Ilios: because other people keep attacking me and my neighbours
i'm like the UN Darrell: well, this mess is mostly behind us so... Ilios: i reserve the right to complain about it as much as i want
well
maybe once a week
on a sunday Darrell: granted Ilios: you are too kind, good sir
for a vampire... Darrell: well, its been an interesting diplo game so far that's for sure
serdoa has brought that at least Ilios: it's just so tiring reasoning with the guy
he only understands brute force Darrell: That's unpleasant, but its worse when you can't trust what someone is saying Ilios: yup Darrell: I am still trying to figure out why he teched currency or divination Ilios: i told him to tech divination
i told him to tech divination Darrell: Out of love no doubt Ilios: yup
all he had to do was tech OO
build/drown drowns
if you did attack
i can assure you
i'd have given you a better fight Darrell: well duh
you have a diverse stack of highly promoted, potent (and mobile) divine units, and production/tech equality or superiority Ilios: the hammer bonus of the gov manor doesn't show in demos, right? Darrell: Err..of course it does. Totally shows up. My MFG is terrible. And what governor's manors? I don't have any of those. Ilios: hehe
I've decided he did not break his NAP with Serdoa, nor our NAP. It pains me greatly, but I'm going to have to let this slide. Don't tell, though, I want to see how he responds to my land divide proposal first .
Calabim Wrote:Okay, so I took another look at it. Basically there is a) on the Incense to grab the food, or b) on the desert which relies on grassland farms for food. Or, there is the site you are suggesting. I have several problems with that site, namely:
1. It surrounds me, making defense a nightmare.
2. Its another sick site for someone who already has four sick sites (plus another at the Dragon Bones, so this would give you six).
I'm reluctantly willing to concede that location to you, but with the following in return:
1. You gift me Sun mana for 10 turns. I want to get an Adept with scorch to start burning some snow tiles. My land was pretty weak. Serdoa's land was crap, especially with what you are carving out. My starting land was also very weak. I have basically one site I rate "sick" and the rest are very marginal. This will let me get a few junk cities up to balance things out.
2. I want 100g, which should be about what you get from razing Coombe View, and I also want to be the one to raze Gaudium.
3. After you found these two cities and I found one city to pick up the Banana/Rice, we agree to discuss new city settlements going forward.
This is kind of my final offer. He's being pretty darn greedy as it is.
I guess its better than being called a peace loving hippie :neenernee.
Look, here's the thing. It is basically a three horse race right now. At some point there will be a 2v1. If I completely alienate Ilios, I'm forced to try and work with uberfish. If I can repair my relationship with Iliois there are two directions I can take. I'm giving up quite a bit here, but I stand to make it all back up and then some in the meta-game. My biggest fear is he assumes since I swallowed so much here, I'm willing to do it later.
. I am heading towards Ashen Veil as we speak. If you want beeline vamps, sometimes you have to wait for a religion. I'm doing pretty good techwise so I think I will be sacrifing the weak in about 2 turns.
![[Image: civ4screenshot0201.jpg]](http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/841/civ4screenshot0201.jpg)
![[Image: civ4screenshot0194.jpg]](http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/1706/civ4screenshot0194.jpg)
. So, hopefully things get worked out. I ended my turn with the same move/summon skeletons pattern as before:![[Image: civ4screenshot0206.jpg]](http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6522/civ4screenshot0206.jpg)
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