PBEM 38 Tech Thread

[SevenSpirits]

Honestly, much as I'd love Small/Monarch/Toroid, that's not fair to anyone, and particularly Miskabod. What about Standard/Prince/Toroid? I'd rather not see techs fly at the Noble/Warlord rates, but Standard lowers the distance maintenance.

A noble attempt, but actually standard INCREASES distance maintenance compared to small. (It does this to partially cancel out the effect that, since standard size maps are typically larger, distances of your cities to your capital as a fraction of the map size are reduced, and this is what distance maintenance keys off of... so maps with larger dimensions give friendlier distance maintenance.)

What standard does reduce is #cities maintenance, since it's assumed that you will have more cities on a standard size map. But it increases distance maintenance so I guess that's probably not what you want.

And to answer the toroidal question, like T-Hawk says it's based on the actual thing, so there's no way to fool it.

Btw on a square map, going from no wrap to cylindrical should increase distance maintenance costs by 33%, and going from cylindrical to toroidal should increase them by 50%, if I understand correctly. (So no wrap to toroidal is a 100% increase.)

[NobleHelium]

Btw on a square map, going from no wrap to cylindrical should increase distance maintenance costs by 33%, and going from cylindrical to toroidal should increase them by 50%, if I understand correctly. (So no wrap to toroidal is a 100% increase.)

This makes sense now that I think about it, and the reason I can't see Toroidal working. How much does difficulty level increase maintenance by? I'd like to quantify how many difficulty levels going from flat->cylindrical and cylindrical->toroidal is roughly equivalent to. Maybe flat->cylindrical is 2 difficulty levels up and cylindrical->toroidal is 3?

[SevenSpirits]

Noble:
distance 75%
#cities 70%

Prince:
distance 85%
#cities 80%

After that they increase by 5% per difficulty level, capping at 100%.

Of course there are other things that get more expensive with higher levels. Unit upkeep and tech costs are the main ones. So doubling distance costs maybe only increases total costs by 20%, I don't know. (In that case no wrap -> toroidal would be about 3 difficulty levels - prince to immortal.) I guess it's a pretty complicated question.

[novice]

Just to give you guys a little better idea of how the balancing works:

Here's a random standard size lakes map:


Here's the balance report:

Total map unfairness (standard deviation in weighted land quality): 2010

Player 0
Isabella of China
229 land tiles.
(77 grass, 38 plains, 20 deserts, 32 tundra, 62 snow. 50 forests, 12 jungles, 1 flood plains, 0 oasis. 48 hills.)
3510 weighted land quality.
290 total food potential.
1.05 food per non-ocean tile.
238 total hammer potential.
0.86 hammers per non-ocean tile.
48 coastal tiles.
6 ocean tiles.

11 strategic resources (2 uranium, 1 iron, 1 stone, 1 marble, 3 copper, 1 coal, 1 horse, 1 oil).
2 happy resources (2 wine).
10 food resources (1 deer, 1 sheep, 3 pig, 1 corn, 2 clam, 1 cow, 1 wheat).
12 health resources (1 deer, 1 sheep, 2 wine, 3 pig, 1 corn, 2 clam, 1 cow, 1 wheat).

Player 1
Gandhi of France
162 land tiles.
(35 grass, 37 plains, 9 deserts, 21 tundra, 60 snow. 37 forests, 5 jungles, 1 flood plains, 0 oasis. 36 hills.)
2280 weighted land quality.
170 total food potential.
0.90 food per non-ocean tile.
184 total hammer potential.
0.97 hammers per non-ocean tile.
27 coastal tiles.
2 ocean tiles.

9 strategic resources (2 iron, 1 copper, 1 oil, 1 horse, 4 ivory).
7 happy resources (1 gold, 4 ivory, 2 silver).
7 food resources (2 pig, 1 cow, 1 rice, 1 deer, 2 clam).
7 health resources (2 pig, 1 cow, 1 rice, 1 deer, 2 clam).

Player 2
Huayna_capac of Ottoman
287 land tiles.
(94 grass, 51 plains, 23 deserts, 16 tundra, 103 snow. 55 forests, 26 jungles, 1 flood plains, 1 oasis. 48 hills.)
4282 weighted land quality.
369 total food potential.
1.06 food per non-ocean tile.
266 total hammer potential.
0.77 hammers per non-ocean tile.
60 coastal tiles.
4 ocean tiles.

12 strategic resources (1 copper, 3 iron, 2 oil, 2 aluminum, 1 coal, 1 ivory, 1 uranium, 1 horse).
16 happy resources (1 whale, 1 gold, 3 fur, 1 dye, 2 incense, 3 silk, 1 ivory, 2 sugar, 2 gems).
15 food resources (1 whale, 2 sheep, 1 fish, 3 wheat, 2 banana, 1 pig, 2 cow, 1 corn, 2 sugar).
14 health resources (2 sheep, 1 fish, 3 wheat, 2 banana, 1 pig, 2 cow, 1 corn, 2 sugar).

Player 3
Darius of Holy_roman
246 land tiles.
(74 grass, 58 plains, 19 deserts, 26 tundra, 69 snow. 48 forests, 19 jungles, 3 flood plains, 0 oasis. 35 hills.)
3649 weighted land quality.
313 total food potential.
1.06 food per non-ocean tile.
229 total hammer potential.
0.77 hammers per non-ocean tile.
50 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

10 strategic resources (3 copper, 2 oil, 1 aluminum, 1 horse, 1 stone, 1 uranium, 1 iron).
5 happy resources (3 dye, 1 gold, 1 sugar).
14 food resources (2 fish, 2 deer, 2 rice, 2 cow, 1 wheat, 1 sheep, 1 crab, 1 pig, 1 sugar, 1 corn).
14 health resources (2 fish, 2 deer, 2 rice, 2 cow, 1 wheat, 1 sheep, 1 crab, 1 pig, 1 sugar, 1 corn).

Player 4
Victoria of Byzantium
339 land tiles.
(128 grass, 76 plains, 40 deserts, 35 tundra, 60 snow. 62 forests, 18 jungles, 1 flood plains, 1 oasis. 57 hills.)
4986 weighted land quality.
417 total food potential.
1.15 food per non-ocean tile.
330 total hammer potential.
0.91 hammers per non-ocean tile.
25 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

16 strategic resources (4 iron, 2 aluminum, 3 coal, 1 uranium, 1 ivory, 2 marble, 2 horse, 1 oil).
5 happy resources (1 wine, 3 spices, 1 ivory).
12 food resources (4 rice, 1 sheep, 2 corn, 3 cow, 1 pig, 1 banana).
16 health resources (4 rice, 1 sheep, 1 wine, 3 spices, 2 corn, 3 cow, 1 pig, 1 banana).

And here's the same map after moving the starts around, keeping a minimum capital distance of 10:



Balance report:

Total map unfairness (standard deviation in weighted land quality): 40

Player 0
Isabella of China
244 land tiles.
(81 grass, 41 plains, 23 deserts, 33 tundra, 66 snow. 54 forests, 10 jungles, 1 flood plains, 0 oasis. 52 hills.)
3757 weighted land quality.
309 total food potential.
1.04 food per non-ocean tile.
257 total hammer potential.
0.87 hammers per non-ocean tile.
52 coastal tiles.
5 ocean tiles.

13 strategic resources (2 iron, 2 marble, 2 uranium, 1 stone, 1 ivory, 2 copper, 1 coal, 1 horse, 1 oil).
3 happy resources (2 wine, 1 ivory).
11 food resources (1 deer, 1 sheep, 4 pig, 1 corn, 2 clam, 1 cow, 1 wheat).
13 health resources (1 deer, 1 sheep, 2 wine, 4 pig, 1 corn, 2 clam, 1 cow, 1 wheat).

Player 1
Gandhi of France
279 land tiles.
(70 grass, 61 plains, 31 deserts, 33 tundra, 84 snow. 49 forests, 9 jungles, 1 flood plains, 1 oasis. 53 hills.)
3739 weighted land quality.
293 total food potential.
0.95 food per non-ocean tile.
279 total hammer potential.
0.90 hammers per non-ocean tile.
31 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

13 strategic resources (2 coal, 2 horse, 2 oil, 3 iron, 1 copper, 3 ivory).
6 happy resources (1 wine, 1 gold, 3 ivory, 1 silver).
11 food resources (3 cow, 3 rice, 2 pig, 1 deer, 2 clam).
12 health resources (1 wine, 3 cow, 3 rice, 2 pig, 1 deer, 2 clam).

Player 2
Huayna_capac of Ottoman
212 land tiles.
(83 grass, 45 plains, 19 deserts, 12 tundra, 53 snow. 49 forests, 20 jungles, 1 flood plains, 1 oasis. 32 hills.)
3708 weighted land quality.
331 total food potential.
1.21 food per non-ocean tile.
212 total hammer potential.
0.77 hammers per non-ocean tile.
62 coastal tiles.
4 ocean tiles.

9 strategic resources (1 copper, 4 iron, 1 oil, 1 aluminum, 1 coal, 1 ivory).
12 happy resources (1 whale, 1 gold, 3 dye, 3 fur, 2 incense, 1 silk, 1 ivory).
13 food resources (1 whale, 2 sheep, 1 fish, 1 rice, 2 wheat, 2 banana, 1 pig, 2 cow, 1 corn).
12 health resources (2 sheep, 1 fish, 1 rice, 2 wheat, 2 banana, 1 pig, 2 cow, 1 corn).

Player 3
Darius of Holy_roman
265 land tiles.
(75 grass, 61 plains, 20 deserts, 30 tundra, 79 snow. 48 forests, 17 jungles, 3 flood plains, 0 oasis. 37 hills.)
3755 weighted land quality.
320 total food potential.
1.03 food per non-ocean tile.
239 total hammer potential.
0.77 hammers per non-ocean tile.
46 coastal tiles.
3 ocean tiles.

12 strategic resources (4 copper, 2 oil, 2 aluminum, 1 horse, 1 stone, 1 uranium, 1 iron).
4 happy resources (1 dye, 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 sugar).
13 food resources (2 fish, 2 deer, 2 cow, 1 wheat, 1 sheep, 1 crab, 1 pig, 1 rice, 1 sugar, 1 corn).
13 health resources (2 fish, 2 deer, 2 cow, 1 wheat, 1 sheep, 1 crab, 1 pig, 1 rice, 1 sugar, 1 corn).

Player 4
Victoria of Byzantium
263 land tiles.
(99 grass, 52 plains, 18 deserts, 22 tundra, 72 snow. 52 forests, 24 jungles, 1 flood plains, 0 oasis. 50 hills.)
3748 weighted land quality.
306 total food potential.
1.09 food per non-ocean tile.
260 total hammer potential.
0.92 hammers per non-ocean tile.
19 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

11 strategic resources (2 uranium, 1 oil, 2 horse, 2 aluminum, 1 iron, 1 ivory, 1 coal, 1 marble).
10 happy resources (2 silk, 2 sugar, 2 gems, 3 spices, 1 ivory).
10 food resources (2 sugar, 1 sheep, 2 rice, 1 wheat, 2 corn, 1 cow, 1 banana).
13 health resources (2 sugar, 1 sheep, 2 rice, 1 wheat, 3 spices, 2 corn, 1 cow, 1 banana).

[yuris125]

Have to say I'm concerned about this

(Player 0): 3 happy resources (2 wine, 1 ivory).
(Player 2): 12 happy resources (1 whale, 1 gold, 3 dye, 3 fur, 2 incense, 1 silk, 1 ivory).

That's after rebalancing

I lack happiness resources in 2 games I'm playing, and it's not fun at all...

[novice]

Yeah as I said the tool doesn't care about resources, so that would have to be rebalanced manually, if you vote to have that done.

I'll also have to make minor edits to make the actual starting locations that the tool selects viable.

So probably
1. Roll a random map according to specified map script settings
2. Run the starting location repositioner
3. Make manual edits to give fair starting locations and resource distributions
4. Recheck the balance.

[Gaspar]

Yeah, I don't personally mind if it isn't precisely even but obviously you'd like a similar number of unique happiness resources available to each player and so on.

I guess my votes on the settings questions:

Base script: Lakes works
Land/water ratio: Err towards land, wouldn't mind keeping under circumnav threshold.
Size: Standard
Difficulty: Prince
Wrap: Cylindrical (I don't really think Lakes works well on a Toroid anyway)
Strategic resource balance: Each player has them within their "sphere of influence," preferably at least one of copper/horse at a 1st ring city
Wonder doubler balance: I'd like these to be on the map in such a way that each team has them available, but not necessarily guaranteed.

[yuris125]

You sure about standard size with high land ratio? Could become a big build fest I think if land ratio is high, size should be small

[Commodore]

Erm, Standard Prince Cylindrical might be a bit too little, any thought to Monarch? Lakes seems fine, interesting without being too imbalanced.

[Gaspar]

You sure about standard size with high land ratio? Could become a big build fest I think if land ratio is high, size should be small

This makes sense.