[SPOILERS] Jowy & Stampy

[flugauto]

And lets hope his borders dont expand.

[NobleHelium]

Jowy, I'm sorry to say this but the consensus is that you can't declare war at the start of the next turn before AT plays his.

On turn 90, you moved after AT when you moved his chariot into his vision. Then on turn 91, you moved before him. Since you moved after him on turn 90 when he first could see your chariot, he has one fewer turn to respond it and make any adjustments as necessary. Thus, you should wait until after he's played turn 92 before you can declare war on him (if you so choose).

If there's any chance of war, it's generally best to keep playing in the same relative order to the opponent(s) that you might soon be at war with.

[Jowy]

I will respect the lurkers judgement and to play as honorably as possible, I will let AT move first on Turn 92 and then choose whether I still want to pursue the destruction of his city The problem I have with the judging is whether the lurkers took into account the fact that AT logged in during T90, after I had already moved. Once AT saw my chariot, he could have moved all units with movement points left to defend. More likely though, he just didn't pay enough attention and missed my chariot because it was under his archer. If he had already spent the movement points of those units on T90 that could defend the city, then in that case the ruling is fair, but if he had the possibility to have those units move towards defending the city, but only didn't do that because he didn't notice my chariot, then the ruling is unfair and AT gets an extra turn to prepare just because of his incompetence.

[NobleHelium]

Yeah, we noticed that he had logged in after you had played. However it's not really fair to assume that he inspected everything on a post end turn login and would have adjusted accordingly (or that he even had a chance to adjust accordingly - his units may already have been moved, his cities may already have been whipped. Whether they actually were or not is not really relevant). Some people only log in once per turn; it doesn't really make sense to hold someone who logs in multiple times to a higher standard just because he happened to log in again after ending his turn.

[Jowy]

Yeah, we noticed that he had logged in after you had played. However it's not really fair to assume that he inspected everything on a post end turn login and would have adjusted accordingly (or that he even had a chance to adjust accordingly - his units may already have been moved. Whether they actually were or not is not really relevant). Some people only log in once per turn; it doesn't really make sense to hold someone who logs in multiple times to a higher standard just because he happened to log in again after ending their turn.

He logged in twice for a total of 4 minutes, takes less than a minute to check everything in your empire at this stage. Every time I log in I check for enemy units. Do I have an unfair advantage because I stay alert? Anyway, it all comes down to whether he had already spent movement points on the unit or units that could defend the city. It's not irrelevant, it's the core of the issue. We're trying to make it so that neither side gets an advantage because of double moving; in this case, if he HAD movement points left on those units, then he gets an advantage from my double move.

If other lurkers have an opinion I'd like to hear it before playing. I don't think NobleHelium understands the situation when he says that it's irrelevant whether they missed a turn of reaction because of their bad play or because of double moves.

[NobleHelium]

The key point is that it's the burden of the aggressor to avoid double moving. I know you did not realize that you'd want to declare war when you made the double move, but the fact of the matter is that it was done. That's why I said I was sorry - because I know you didn't do it intentionally.

[Jowy]

Best case scenario is if you could find out whether they just missed the chariot, or if they truly didn't have movement points left on the unit or units that could defend. However, I understand that if they didn't mention these things in their lurker thread, then asking for it directly is on the gray area concerning spoilers. Judging by the fact that they've moved their archer towards the city, I think they've realized that it's in danger, and it should be okay to ask for these details. But use your own judgement whether you can ask them or not, or reveal that information to me.

[novice]

We're trying to make it so that neither side gets an advantage because of double moving; in this case, if he HAD movement points left on those units, then he gets an advantage from my double move.

If other lurkers have an opinion I'd like to hear it before playing. I don't think NobleHelium understands the situation when he says that it's irrelevant whether they missed a turn of reaction because of their bad play or because of double moves.

I understand this is an unfun situation, but I have to agree with NobleHelium here. You can't really argue that your double move doesn't matter because AutomatedTeller might get an advantage from it in some hypothetical cases - I think we can all see how that sets a bad precedent. The fact of the matter is that your chariot double moved AT to get in the position it's currently at.

[Krill]

What Noble and novice said. FWIW, this:

I know you did not realize that you'd want to declare war when you made the double move, but the fact of the matter is that it was done.

is pretty much it. If you think you might want to declare war, like if you come across an undefended worker or city, better to just play as if a turn split exists. If you aren't sure what can happen, play as if a turn split exists. It's just safer and fairer for everyone including yourself because you can't be accused of anything. And take screen shots. It's fun for lurkers to read and shows you are playing above board.

[Jowy]

We're trying to make it so that neither side gets an advantage because of double moving; in this case, if he HAD movement points left on those units, then he gets an advantage from my double move.

If other lurkers have an opinion I'd like to hear it before playing. I don't think NobleHelium understands the situation when he says that it's irrelevant whether they missed a turn of reaction because of their bad play or because of double moves.

I understand this is an unfun situation, but I have to agree with NobleHelium here. You can't really argue that your double move doesn't matter because AutomatedTeller might get an advantage from it in some hypothetical cases - I think we can all see how that sets a bad precedent. The fact of the matter is that your chariot double moved AT to get in the position it's currently at.

Definition of double move is moving twice before your opponent gets to react. In this case, AT possibly got to react. If the unit or units that could make it to defend the city still had movement points left on T90 when he logged in after I moved the chariot, then he had a chance to react. If he spent 4 minutes fucking around and didn't notice my chariot, then that's just his bad play. That's what I'm trying to find out. The point of the honor system is to judge each case independently because no-one has figured out a good rule-set to follow in these situations. If I find out that he did have those movement points, then I will play first. If I don't get any new information (whether it's because they don't want to reveal it, lurkers don't want to ask it, lurkers don't want to tell me etc.) then I will not have enough information to judge whether I should move first or second, and in that case I will do the honorable thing and play second, even if it ends up netting an unfair advantage to AT.