*shrug* base BtS civs are broken. There are, what, 34 civs? I think any civ that starts with a combination of Myst/Wheel/Mining is effectively junk without very specific leaders and starts, which drops it to 26 (OK, that includes India, but they get removed anyway due to the FW). Take out Inca for 25. Then there are the Hunting civs, if they are not viable (most of the time will not be) that's only 13 viable civs. There aren't many straightforward ways to deal with that issue short of hard balancing each start to make different starting techs more viable.
I know this is self promotion, but if there is one change in the RB mod that I think ought to be unquestionably in the base game, it's the change to Hunting and AH for pastures (with the associated changes in cost to Hunting and Archery to maintain balance there). That single change is what makes most of the civs viable, not any changes to individual civs or the leader traits.
Mali isn't horrible, especially if all the food is unlocked by a first-row tech, IMO. Do you disagree?
Also, yeah, that's my favorite balance action from RB mod, too.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Mali is IMO niche. I ran the numbers in a sim a few years ago that unless you start with fishing, seafood only starts are generally the slowest you can have (due to delay in getting a worker), but with Fishing are pretty fast if you only have to hook up 1 and can then get a worker immediately afterwards either via slavery or building at size 1. Provided it's fish - crabs or clams are just crap whatever happens.
If it is a grain, then sure it can work, the problem is that Agri costs more than Mining with the added inflexibility that if you also have seafood you're basically fucked. Rule of thumb is that unless you start with a grain any civ that starts without a tech is fucked.
Basically you saying that to pick Mali I have to look at my start (which may only be 9 tiles) and see a grain. And it has to be at least a 5 food grain really, dry rice or wheat isn't exactly going to cut it. That's not all that many starts, well less than 1/3 of the starts I've seen. Would I pick a civ on those odds? Picking blind, the answer is no. Picking sighted like here? No, because I want my opponents to have to take those risky odds while I pick a safer choice like Babylon if I can't see my food, or England/Rome if I know I have fish.
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(May 20th, 2013, 18:50)Krill Wrote: *shrug* base BtS civs are broken. There are, what, 34 civs? I think any civ that starts with a combination of Myst/Wheel/Mining is effectively junk without very specific leaders and starts, which drops it to 26 (OK, that includes India, but they get removed anyway due to the FW). Take out Inca for 25. Then there are the Hunting civs, if they are not viable (most of the time will not be) that's only 13 viable civs. There aren't many straightforward ways to deal with that issue short of hard balancing each start to make different starting techs more viable.
I know this is self promotion, but if there is one change in the RB mod that I think ought to be unquestionably in the base game, it's the change to Hunting and AH for pastures (with the associated changes in cost to Hunting and Archery to maintain balance there). That single change is what makes most of the civs viable, not any changes to individual civs or the leader traits.
Krill, we've said several times that we don't play your mod because you make too many changes that we don't agree with. You make some changes that we do agree with, and swapping AH and Hunting is probably one of them, but I'm not interested in playing with the rest of your baggage just to get that fix.
Love the line of forests. From left to right, starting 1NW of the scout: Snow-covered conifers, conifers, and finally deciduous. That's some rapid climate gradients.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
![[Image: start.20m.JPG]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42880948/PBEM50/start.20m.JPG)
