[NO PLAYERS] The Kibitzer Klub: PB13 Map & Lurkers

[BRickAstley]

Brick, I'll be blunt. I don't really care how good you think the map you've found is, I don't like Big and Small scripts, for the gameplay at that map size, or for the game balance or intrigue. I don't particularly trust you as a map maker, because of lack of knowledge of what you've done before. I don't trust the combination of your skills and the script to fit 18 players in and still be interesting to the random start I would get. There are maybe 4 people I'd actually trust to make a map (well 5 but mackoti never makes maps IIRC) and most of them wanted to play or ded lurk in this game though, so I wanted to next best thing: a script I trusted to provide a basis that I was fairly sure you would be able to work on and provide am interesting game.

Now here is the thing: I don't blame you, on any level for me not playing. The other players wanted to play on these settings, so the majority rules. But I'm not going to spend 1,000 hours of my time, when I have dissertations to write, essays to plan, presentations to produce and placements to work at, playing a game that I'm not comfortable will be fun. I could be wrong, I openly admit that, the game could be fantastic, but I'm not willing to agree to a gamble which these settings are. And that's why I dropped out.

I completely understand, and don't think less of you for it. I did feel kinda stuck with the scattered group opinion regarding the map style to be created, so I took the opinions presented and made what I felt was the best decision I could make considering. I could very likely fail with making the map and ensuring balance, but that's why I'm taking my sweet time with the map and will be having some more esteemed community members such as novice and rego checking it before I send it out to make completely sure I'm not missing something essential.

And I don't blame you for not trusting me, I am somewhat newer and certainly not as established in Civ ability as others here are. I'll just say that I hope my efforts will prove you wrong in your feeling.

[BRickAstley]

That was the deal breaker, yes, but I don't want to play random leaders again, even with a veto system. There is too much stuff that I don't want to play, not for power level, but because I've played it before, that I am not interested in playing.

I am curious though, you mentioned the ARAM-style random picking as if it were something you thought would be a good option, but that is part of your reason for not wanting to play?

[Krill]

I completely understand, and don't think less of you for it. I did feel kinda stuck with the scattered group opinion regarding the map style to be created, so I took the opinions presented and made what I felt was the best decision I could make considering. I could very likely fail with making the map and ensuring balance, but that's why I'm taking my sweet time with the map and will be having some more esteemed community members such as novice and rego checking it before I send it out to make completely sure I'm not missing something essential.

And I don't blame you for not trusting me, I am somewhat newer and certainly not as established in Civ ability as others here are. I'll just say that I hope my efforts will prove you wrong in your feeling.

I hope so to. Good luck with the map making.

[flugauto]

Krill, what do you think about "Inner Sea" map for a game like PB13?

[Krill]

That was the deal breaker, yes, but I don't want to play random leaders again, even with a veto system. There is too much stuff that I don't want to play, not for power level, but because I've played it before, that I am not interested in playing.

I am curious though, you mentioned the ARAM-style random picking as if it were something you thought would be a good option, but that is part of your reason for not wanting to play?

Well, let's put it this way. If it was like PB5 and PB8 where you had to play the first roll, I'd have quit immediately. That ARAM-style setting is just a straight improvement for those players that have maybe one or two things they don't want to play, like azza with Rome or rego with Bismark (what do I know, he would probably still want to play Bismark for the 15th billion time), as it does remove that single problem. But I have a much longer list of things I don't want to play:

• Any Spi leader (Gandhi, Asoka, Brennus)
  
• Any leader I've played before so: De Gaulle
  
• Joao
  
• Darius
  
• Wang Kon
  
• Tokugawa
  
• Any civ I've played before so: Inca
  
• Rome
  
• Egypt
  
• Aztec
  
• Ottoman
  
• France

Then there is the general stuff that I'm just blah about like PHI. I understand that Commodore was "But oh the power levels will be off if we snake pick and some of us choose randoms!" but seriously, I was going to pick Shaka of Zulu if I had the chance. So I think that I'd have maybe choked down the 2 re-roll system with a Torusworld map script (even with Events, I just would have been rather violent if ome of the events turned up like losing a size 5 city for no reason) but it would likely have been a bad decision (due to RL concerns) on my part to do that.

[Krill]

Krill, what do you think about "Inner Sea" map for a game like PB13?

Fucking terrible. It's basically a PB3 map, with some ocean shoved in the middle. There would still be way too much continuous land borders. I think TBG is the worst script possible (note: not blaming Sullla for the PB3 map, this is with hindsight now), followed Inland Sea Toroidal, which is worse that cylindrical which is worse than flat. Honestly think that the map has to be toroidal with so many players because any one stuck "in the middle" like Serdoa was in PB8 are screwed. But when it's toroidal you have to start breaking the map up by creating coastlines and mountain ranges, which leads down the path of Torusworld being almost a one right choice for a base map script even if Brick spent 80 hours editing it to look like something else entirely.

nb. Brick hasn't asked me to look at the map, or asked my opinion so take this comment with a pinch of salt: I think if the map for this game is cylindrical it's already broken, or start locations will have to be edited like the PB4 map to have everyone along the north and south edges of the map in which case it isn't natural like they asked for. And I mean broken inasmuch that strategically those players in the centre just have completely different problems that they have to deal with, to the extent they are playing completely different games to those on the "outside". I know I've harped on about Serdoa's start a bit in PB8, but by taking an extra 6 players and increasing the map dimensions all that making the map larger achieves is that more players are still in the centre and late game have to defend from all angles, but those on the map edges don't. The map might look playable, even balanced, but fundamentally the starts are not comparable for a game that will last beyond Astro.

[flugauto]

Are Protective leaders banned or is it just RNG, that there is no Protective leader in the first draft?

[BRickAstley]

nb. Brick hasn't asked me to look at the map, or asked my opinion so take this comment with a pinch of salt: I think if the map for this game is cylindrical it's already broken, or start locations will have to be edited like the PB4 map to have everyone along the north and south edges of the map in which case it isn't natural like they asked for. And I mean broken inasmuch that strategically those players in the centre just have completely different problems that they have to deal with, to the extent they are playing completely different games to those on the "outside". I know I've harped on about Serdoa's start a bit in PB8, but by taking an extra 6 players and increasing the map dimensions all that making the map larger achieves is that more players are still in the centre and late game have to defend from all angles, but those on the map edges don't. The map might look playable, even balanced, but fundamentally the starts are not comparable for a game that will last beyond Astro.

When I am at the point where I want people to review the map, I can definitely send you a copy if you want to look at it and give feedback.

I do somewhat disagree with your analysis of positioning. I agree that Serdoa's start was crap, but I feel a lot of that was the number of neighbors and the land that he got. Someone in the center of the map doesn't necessarily have to have that small of a spit of land not under heavy contention, nor do they have to have the large amount of neighbors that he had. It is more likely to have more neighbors and more directions to defend in yes, but I don't think sheer latitude alone will decide the fate of someone's game.

EDIT: also, by the time Astro rolls around, players either have well established themselves, or have been put into a precarious position in intercontinental warfare that's independent of where they are on the map (excepting a PB8 slowcheetah position), and that is arguably more of a deciding factor than their proximity to the poles. Yes at that point it will make a difference, if they have another cardinal direction to have to defend from, but considering how unlikely it will be for there to be a perfect positioning where that is a predominant factor over others, I don't think it would be the crucial issue.

[Mardoc]

Pacal of India? Holy cow!

Granted, Exp and Fin are both nerfed, but...I hope Jowy keeps that.

[BRickAstley]

Yeah that was quite the chuckle when i saw that. This round of randoms was much kinder on average