[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[WilliamLP]

3S might be a perfectly fine settlement option with the river defense. We'll see what else is around in a couple of turns.

It's too bad neither one of us can read his thread in PB 11. I'd love to have some sort of personality scouting on this guy.

When you said you had a military slant you weren't kidding! I don't think early war is anywhere near as inevitable as you do but it's good to have a contrast.

Normally I'd be comfortable assuming that a map-maker wouldn't put copper in his capital, but after moving two turns, I'm much more unsure. But he still needs to get wheel and spend the worker turns to find copper and hook it up, plus I really doubt he'd do that before planting a second city. Unless he's a war maniac, which I guess I can't rule out! But I have to assume he will play in his own best interest to be competitive in a long game. And he needs to worry about defending his capital even more than we do.

We will also have graphs on him in 8-10 turns (depending on how he allocates his EP), so nothing is going to be an immediate surprise. Personally, you're going to have to sell me pretty hard that we need archery before mining next. After that, well it is a cheap tech in this mod so we can see how the situation looks and going for an archer or two after the first settler isn't crazy.

[WilliamLP]

Anyway, about what to do after the worker comes out. As a baseline, here's what happens if we go as food heavy as possible until size 4:

T11 - Worker is available
T15 - (Meditation EOT)
T16 - Corn online
T18 - Now size 2 with excess of 7 food, 14 hammers
T21 - Cow 1 online
T21 - Now size 3 with excess of 2 food, 20 hammers
T24 - Now size 4 with excess of 3 food, 32 hammers
T27 - Cow 2 online
T31 - Settler available (if started at size 4), with 12 hammer overflow.

Base hammer output is now 7 per turn, raisable to 8 if we want to give up the silk beaker. So we'd have our first archer on T33, with the ability to basically 3-turn them after that. Less after we mine that river plains hill.

Mining is a 7 turn tech, Archery is 5 turns, BW is 12-13. So if we're going to go Archery before Bronze, whether we go archery / mining or mining / archery doesn't seem to matter so I guess we might as well start with mining to marginally increase the chances of getting a better tech (BW) from a hut.

My own builder sensibilities say don't do anything that slows down the above growths. Honestly I don't feel like the 2 and 3 warrior rushes are really even worth trying. Sure we can march them down and make Retep prove he's not doing a pure farmer's gambit, but I think he'll easily be able to do so. I don't know what the odds are even of 2 warriors vs 1 on a +20% plains hill, but I'm sure they're not overwhelming. I also don't think we need to go out of our way to defend against anything that will come out before turn 31 - the 2 quechuas on turn 24 should hold fine.

If we do stick to the above schedule, there isn't much wiggle room. We can trade 1 food for a hammer and get the first quechua on T18 instead of T19, which seems an easy choice. And we'll want to have 0 excess food when building the settler at size 4. But trading more than 2 food away early slows down the size 3 growth, and more than 3 food slows down the size 4 growth.

And yes I'm well aware that a very slightly better economy isn't worth very much when dead.

[MindyMcCready]

3S might be a perfectly fine settlement option with the river defense. We'll see what else is around in a couple of turns.

That's not a bad city, especially for defensive purposes, but it gives up all that riverside. 4S-1W locks down all of those riverside tiles and makes an amazing commerce site.

It also prevents retep from planting on that plains hill 1S of the spice which is a very big consideration defensively.

4S-1W becomes our front-line city and the only way to our capital is through the 2 mountains. Retep would likely build a city on the plains hill 2W of the spice in response. Let him have dry wheat.

When you said you had a military slant you weren't kidding!

Enough talk. Let's FIGHT!!!

But seriously, while naturally militaristic that region is a bit of a concern for me. The 4S-1W really locks retep out of the area with the mountains and the 2-tile lake. So that's definately my preferred location.

However, being naturally militaristic I'd be pretty pissed with that city plant if I were retep. I also would not hesitate to raze that city if I had an axe and the city was defended by warriors. This is a distinct possibility. So this is why I think that we need to be prepared ahead to defend it. What if Retep was me! Its not that we must have Archery first, but rather that we need to be able to defend that city site in time against a predictable reaction.

T11 - Worker is available
T15 - (Meditation EOT)
T16 - Corn online
T18 - Now size 2 with excess of 7 food, 14 hammers
T21 - Cow 1 online
T21 - Now size 3 with excess of 2 food, 20 hammers
T24 - Now size 4 with excess of 3 food, 32 hammers
T27 - Cow 2 online
T31 - Settler available (if started at size 4), with 12 hammer overflow.

Base hammer output is now 7 per turn, raisable to 8 if we want to give up the silk beaker. So we'd have our first archer on T33, with the ability to basically 3-turn them after that. Less after we mine that river plains hill.

Mining is a 7 turn tech, Archery is 5 turns, BW is 12-13. So if we're going to go Archery before Bronze, whether we go archery / mining or mining / archery doesn't seem to matter so I guess we might as well start with mining to marginally increase the chances of getting a better tech (BW) from a hut.

I think you understand my concern now. I'll take a look at this and get back to you. Partly I haven't played CIV for quite awhile now so I'm having a little trouble with timeframes - when a threat might materialize.

Also, where do the warrior fit in with this plan?

Honestly I don't feel like the 2 and 3 warrior rushes are really even worth trying.

Agreed. One warrior or bust.

I also don't think we need to go out of our way to defend against anything that will come out before turn 31 - the 2 quechuas on turn 24 should hold fine.

See above, depends where we plant.

And yes I'm well aware that a very slightly better economy isn't worth very much when dead.

Can't take it with you.

[WilliamLP]

That's not a bad city, especially for defensive purposes, but it gives up all that riverside. 4S-1W locks down all of those riverside tiles and makes an amazing commerce site.

It also prevents retep from planting on that plains hill 1S of the spice which is a very big consideration defensively.

4S-1W becomes our front-line city and the only way to our capital is through the 2 mountains. Retep would likely build a city on the plains hill 2W of the spice in response. Let him have dry wheat.

It's good to get into this - how a settlement will limit his choices. It's kind of sad that we're thinking in terms of settler chess on turn 11, lol.

When reading this first I was concerned that the gold needs to be in the first ring. It's riverside gold which is a 0/3/8 tile! It isn't far from doubling our beaker output and if possible we want to work it when the new city is size 2, and never stop for the rest of the game. But if we land Buddhism the capital culture will actually capture it in time anyway I think. We'll need to work it out.

However, being naturally militaristic I'd be pretty pissed with that city plant if I were retep. I also would not hesitate to raze that city if I had an axe and the city was defended by warriors. This is a distinct possibility. So this is why I think that we need to be prepared ahead to defend it. What if Retep was me! Its not that we must have Archery first, but rather that we need to be able to defend that city site in time against a predictable reaction.

I'm sold. We need archery before BW. As long as we micro to get that gold worked as soon as possible the small cost of Archery won't set us back that much at all. And BW isn't so essential for this economy that it needs to come in 4-5 turns earlier, I don't think. Whips will still be available those turns later, and trees will still be there too.

Also, where do the warrior fit in with this plan?

We get one on T18, then another on T24. This is with the settler at size 4. In light of the gold though, I'm going to try and experimenting with a size 3 opening, slowing down growth a bit to get the two warriors before a settler, because if that works the gold a couple of turns earlier it would be worth a lot.

Our big advantage is that we have a 9.5/10 crazy fast start. With a double accelerated worker (plains hill and EXP), and riverside corn, and also an incredible 6 food-hammer river cow site. And then a second city that can grow with wet corn and work river gold immediately is also amazing for the later early game. On a wish list of what a start should have we've got it all other than isolation. Typically I think we'll see most of the first city plants come at about T35-38 and we'll be a couple turns ahead of that.

I really like our chances against retep in the T60-120 period. He has to worry about multiple borders. His PHI isn't going to do anything yet. He has cheap granaries but we get basically a free monument with ours so that's almost a wash. We get all the goodies from EXP, don't have to burn anarchy turns, and should have all the happiness we need with gold + silver + religion. And we have gold fueled tech plus plenty of riverside cottages. We both know that in the ancient age effective attacks are extremely hard and I predict if we just lock up the board with a few archers it will be at least a stalemate until siege comes out. (It will be really good to have you on board at that point because I don't have experience playing complicated war turns in a MP game.)

So I actually do like the idea of more aggressive settlements. Because it's much, much easier to plant and defend than it is to conquer them, within reason.

[WilliamLP]

This land...




I'm a big fan of settling on the silk now. The silk is good for a 2C city tile, which is probably the best economic use for it anyway! (Improved silk is only +4C, only as good as a mature cottage!)

It dovetails really well with the capital getting gold in the third ring on turn 26. (15 turns at +2 culture, then 10 turns as the holy city at +7 equals 100)

After analyzing it a bit, I'm convinced to accelerate the start and produce the settler on turn 29 at size 3, while still getting 2 quechuas:

T16 - Quechua
T18 - Size 2
T22 - Quechua, Size 3
T29 - Settler

All we really sacrifice for this is growing to size 3 one turn later than before, and then being only size 3 instead of 4 while the settler builds, losing out on some food-hammers. Ultimately working the gold two turns earlier will more than make up for it. And warriors slightly earlier is a bonus as well. I anticipate getting an archer while growing to size 4 after this which will get it out in 4-5 turns. I'd bet a lot against an axe attacking before then, except maybe if Retep has copper in the capital and also wants to do a OCC and throw away his game.




Working the silks until the corn is improved gives almost enough hammers to make the above plan work. We just need one turn on a 1/2 tile after we hit size 2, and we'll get the settler out exactly on turn 29 with 1 food to spare.




3 people have size 2 cities, presumably with fishing starts.

[WilliamLP]

What if Retep was me!

A double agent! I'm onto you.

[MindyMcCready]

Holy cow! Like seriously holy cow!

Hunting --> The single most valuable tech you could possible have! Is the RB mod supposed to do this? We're making a run at Buddism strictly because of this mod change.

So many reasons to plant there. We'd just better hope that we beat retep to that location.

[WilliamLP]

Yeah, there's no need to ask where's the beef in this game. My guess is that early game weight was moved on to hunting to balance the civs that start with it. E.g. Khmer with hunting and mining may now be upper tier.




I'm opting to keep scouting east instead of around retep's land, in case we find another hut. I think we may be unlucky with only one so far but at least it was half a key tech and not maps or experience.

[MindyMcCready]

East seems good. We don't need to tip off retep with hostile intentions before we're ready to defend that city site. Given the approach direction of our scout he probably thinks that we're NW of him.

Keep that scout safe! Save the 2nd move if its going to land you on flatlands. We've got decent city sites,...his job is to find us metal and horses and huts.

[Krill]

Holy cow! Like seriously holy cow!

Hunting --> The single most valuable tech you could possible have! Is the RB mod supposed to do this? We're making a run at Buddism strictly because of this mod change.

Er, what?