[SPOILERS] Margarita and the Lurkers

[Maga_R]

Various bans are used in different games. I've never seen that ban list before though.

Hello Krill, our first lurker, welcome! I hope that hundred will follow in your wake .

This list was posted on CFC as a typical RB ban list - perhaps I should go to the source . The point is, however, to discuss what is the value of different traits, especially in our particular situation: likely "educational" map with some place to peacefully expand, Emperor or Monarch difficulty. So far 7 looks like 7 teams (civs). Any thoughts?

[Maga_R]

And here is SevenSpirit's leader and civ ranking system, in points:

Fin - 4 points
Exp, Org, Inca, India - 3 points
Spi, Ind, Cre, Viking, Dutch - 2 points
Phi, Holy Rome, all other agri civs - 1 point

I agree with Org being highly valued here, still surprised about SPI valued so highly - and PHI so lowly . In my only MP game so far, I was playing Mehmed (EXP/ORG) and I loved both his traits. I am tempted to choose him again, although with only 7 teams almost for sure everybody else would pick FIN so choosing Mehmed would be very risky, or simply a bad idea.

[Krill]

I think every pitboss game has used different ban lists. The playstyle at RB has evolved over the course of 50 PBEMs fairly fluidly, but because there are much fewer PB games, the rules and bans in PBs have a much courser...granularity to them. And in that, the PBEM games have many more players, so bans in PB games have to take that into account, where as PBEM games always see the same 3 leaders and civs in every game (with no bans there is a theory that there is one "correct" pick order in a 5 player PBEM on "standard" settings). This game with 7 players is closer to a PBEM than a PB in size though. If I had to categorize a general bans for a PBEM, it would actually be something like Pacal, Willem and Sury (FIN/CRE/EXP combinations) and Inca/India. Anything else goes, and that leaves quite a few interesting combinations available.

Play what you like though. Just you'll probably be better on Monarch than Emperor.

[Maga_R]

I think every pitboss game has used different ban lists. The playstyle at RB has evolved over the course of 50 PBEMs fairly fluidly, but because there are much fewer PB games, the rules and bans in PBs have a much courser...granularity to them. And in that, the PBEM games have many more players, so bans in PB games have to take that into account, where as PBEM games always see the same 3 leaders and civs in every game (with no bans there is a theory that there is one "correct" pick order in a 5 player PBEM on "standard" settings). This game with 7 players is closer to a PBEM than a PB in size though. If I had to categorize a general bans for a PBEM, it would actually be something like Pacal, Willem and Sury (FIN/CRE/EXP combinations) and Inca/India. Anything else goes, and that leaves quite a few interesting combinations available.

Play what you like though. Just you'll probably be better on Monarch than Emperor.

Thx for your explanations, Krill. Nah, I think the main reason I like Mehmed is that I have not played any other leader in MP yet - will try to be reasonable . And the game we played was toroidal wrap, 11 players and likely Emperor difficulty (strangely, there was some controversy what the actual difficulty was). All these setting seem to favor ORG and indeed ORG leaders where doing best in that game - but there was not a single FIN leader. It was not because of a ban, leaders were randomly generated.

[Qgqqqqq]

Various bans are used in different games. I've never seen that ban list before though.

This list was posted on CFC as a typical RB ban list - perhaps I should go to the source .

Yeah, whoever posted that was lying, I don't think we've ever had one as restrictive as that.

I'm not sure where you got that ranking from - one of the pbem starting threads?
Because those aren't held as rankings so much as designed to increase variety in leaders/civs, and depending on the map (so HR was probably banned for toroidial which isn't the case here). Seven does have a ranking of civs floating around which tbh I don't understand, but its not just 1-4 points.

[Maga_R]

Various bans are used in different games. I've never seen that ban list before though.

This list was posted on CFC as a typical RB ban list - perhaps I should go to the source .

Yeah, whoever posted that was lying, I don't think we've ever had one as restrictive as that.

Whoa ... let us just say whoever posted it was misinformed . It was posted on CFC team internal forum, without specifying the source other than RB. I do get the idea for sure - not to play the same leaders all over again. In our case - many inexperience players - it does not seem to be a problem. I was using this "banned" list only as a popularity rankings in rebours . Not criticizing or otherwise commenting the leader and civ banning.

I'm not sure where you got that ranking from - one of the pbem starting threads?
Because those aren't held as rankings so much as designed to increase variety in leaders/civs, and depending on the map (so HR was probably banned for toroidial which isn't the case here). Seven does have a ranking of civs floating around which tbh I don't understand, but its not just 1-4 points.

Seven's list I found myself recently somewhere on RB. It was done for a (new?) game and the idea was to add points for leaders and civs and give every player 6 or 7 points to use as they see fit. It was actually very interesting idea, not banning anything but still disallowing the most overpowered combinations like Pacal of India and Inca.

Again, I am using it here in reverse - to get as high scoring combination as possible in my picking position (that I do not know yet).

[Nicolae Carpathia]

I read Master and Margarita years ago and I think it totally went over the top of my head. Explain it to me!

Also, SPI is an awesome trait if used wisely. It gives you so much flexibility and you can do some terrifying things with it. You'll almost always be in the optimal civics for the situation.

[Maga_R]

I read Master and Margarita years ago and I think it totally went over the top of my head. Explain it to me!

Would be happy to! And more excerpts are coming .

Also, SPI is an awesome trait if used wisely. It gives you so much flexibility and you can do some terrifying things with it. You'll almost always be in the optimal civics for the situation.

Explain it to me . Somehow still cannot warm up to it - the traits that give disocunts on very useful buidings (EXP, ORG etc) look much better to me. CFC team picked Mansa for ISDG - SPI trait looked pretty useless initially, start was very slow. Looks like it starts only to become useful midgame.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

SPI is very much a midgame trait that comes into play once you have a lot of civic-unlocking techs. Well, it does also save one early-game turn when you bronze-working comes in, but overall you need to make up for the early game in other ways, like picking a fast-starting civilization.

Once you hit the midgame, oh boy, it becomes awesome. Just built the 'mids? Instant +15 population potential. Just teched banking? Instant + 3 * number of cities beakers. Someone threatens you? Flip into nationalism or slavery. You've just whipped a big round of infrastructure, and you're regrowing/whip timers are ticking down? Flip into Caste. Want to pop some borders? Caste artists. Want a great person? Flip into Caste/Pacifism, 10 turns later, you have a ~100% choice of scientist or merchant or artst. Want to build up a scary army? Flip into theocracy. In the words of Locke, SPI lets you pretend to pretend to be CRE and PHI and AGG and any number of things.

I recently won a game with Mansa Musa, he's probably my single favourite leader because SPI is fun and FIN is simply broken. I made up for the lack of any early game traits by simply expanding aggressively, with lots of 3-pop settler whips, early OrgRel, and granaries instantly chopped on the first turn a city got settled. Somehow I was beating three other EXP teams in expansion.

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah SPI is awesome, especially in multiplayer for the flexibility it allows.