RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[Krill]

Trade routes to the islands are pretty much equal to trade routes with other teams, which considering the other teams are also going to have overseas trade routes, means that OB with other teams is still better than internal trade troutes.

Ergo, expanding overseas for trade routes helps your oppoonents more than you for trade routes.

[Olodune]

Moved the silver to slightly improved corner islands, there some more tiles (tundra) and crab resources there as well. Corn removed.

[Krill]

EDIT RE silver. I'd just add a land tile or two and create a fresh water lake in the 2 unirrigated islands, and strip out the silver from the islands, it's really the food that I think is the most important there.

OTOH, there is no silver on the habitat ring, and there are actually 3 islands with silver, from 10 o'clock to 7 o'clock to 6 o'clock. If silver is stripped from theses, there will only be gold on the habitat ring and inner isle, silver on the inner ring, and no gems. It would favour your idea of making the habitat ring worse if there was only silver on the habitat ring and gold/silver on the inner isle.

TBH I'm not entire sure what would be wrong with replacing the gold on the habitat ring with silver, replace gold/silver on the centre isle with gems (there are currently 6 resources as I see it) and place 1 silver on each isle, making sure everyone gets 1 silver. This does however, limit trading ability, but yoyu can't fairly split up silver/gold/gems into clusters as you've said before. Hence, keeping the gems count low to fight over later, the gold to fight over early and hte silver available to everyone, and the calendar res well spread, the happy resources do provide an interesting quandry for people to settle, fight and trade.

[Olodune]

Another balance pass -- decided to move horses close to the initial BFC, clear all peaks from the BFC's and make sure each start has a 1/2/0 tile to enable a WB built more easily.

[Olodune]

TBH I'm not entire sure what would be wrong with replacing the gold on the habitat ring with silver, replace gold/silver on the centre isle with gems (there are currently 6 resources as I see it) and place 1 silver on each isle, making sure everyone gets 1 silver. This does however, limit trading ability, but yoyu can't fairly split up silver/gold/gems into clusters as you've said before. Hence, keeping the gems count low to fight over later, the gold to fight over early and hte silver available to everyone, and the calendar res well spread, the happy resources do provide an interesting quandry for people to settle, fight and trade.

I think I'm fairly happy with the current happy res situation -- starting with furs, everyone has easy access to at least two more resources by calendar. With trading + HR there is a decent happy situation, but still enough pressure to make investing in the center enticing (or so I hope).

[Krill]

There is a gold tile on the island next to player 4. Needs deleting.

This is perhaps superfluous, but there are tundra furs on some islands. Considering that those furs can't be traded, and the tiles are awful, should they exist? Could they be exchanged for, say, plains copper/iron?

I also think you should delete one of the fish on hte island next to player 4, most likely the fish towards the SE of hte island.

EDIT: Ultimately, I think I'd have to come down on the side that would prefer to not remove resources from the game. This is a team effort though, so I think everyone else should be able to weigh in on the situation. More than anything, I'm most interested in how everyone thinks the balance is going to be affected, considering that the last 2 maps sullla made have each showcased the removal of 1 subset of resources (stone/marble in MTDG, gems/gold/silver in RBPB1).

[Olodune]

There is a gold tile on the island next to player 4. Needs deleting.

This is perhaps superfluous, but there are tundra furs on some islands. Considering that those furs can't be traded, and the tiles are awful, should they exist? Could they be exchanged for, say, plains copper/iron?

I also think you should delete one of the fish on hte island next to player 4, most likely the fish towards the SE of hte island.

EDIT: Ultimately, I think I'd have to come down on the side that would prefer to not remove resources from the game. This is a team effort though, so I think everyone else should be able to weigh in on the situation. More than anything, I'm most interested in how everyone thinks the balance is going to be affected, considering that the last 2 maps sullla made have each showcased the removal of 1 subset of resources (stone/marble in MTDG, gems/gold/silver in RBPB1).

I agree, I wouldn't mind hearing from MH or Ruff as well. My rationale for removing those resources is just to create slightly tighter caps. By removing one each from Granary(Corn), Market(Ivory), Supermarket(Pigs), and Forge(Gems) I'm hoping not to showcase any particular playstyle (well other than removing 'phants).

I'll remove the gold and fish you mentioned above.

Edit: Really, the caps are fairly generous -- it's just that trading opportunities are fewer than normal. I've played a few starts to 1000bc and find the map fun and the tech pace quite fast. I do wonder if perhaps giving a galley would be a good idea to provide easier access to the islands.

[Olodune]

I'm going to be away from Civ access for most of tomorrow morning and into the afternoon, so if someone else wants to make the final edits and get the starting screens they're welcome to. (At the minimum the signs marking the starts need to be removed.) Otherwise I'll get back to it around 4pm EST. If Ruff and/or MH could weight in before then that would be great. Latest version attached.

Edit: There is also one tile off the island SE of s9 where a coastal sea tile is "ocean" when it should be "coast", pretty obvious which one.

[newbie]

Suggestions re. strategic resources, which combine fairness/balance with interest/variety:

- Move horses 4 (or maybe 5) tiles from all capitals, so that they are 1-third/30-40 percent towards the next capital clockwise. i.e. distance of horses from Nth capital is 0.3-0.4 times distance of N'th capital from (N+1)th capital
- Move copper 4 (or maybe 5) tiles from all capitals, so that they are 1-third/30-40 percent towards the next capital anticlockwise. i.e. distance of copper from Nth capital is 0.3-0.4 times distance of N'th capital from (N-1)th capital
- following the above, then horses are 1 city away from capital clockwise and copper is 1 city away anticlockwise from each capital, ensuring that everyone will have at least one strategic resource. Plus fairness/symmetry. Civs are pretty much guaranteed both strategic resources (copper+horse) if they strategize for it (scouting + research resource-revealing techs + choose to settle the relevant place), but can be denied by civ (N+1) or (N-1) if they delay this too long, which is as it should be...
- Also note that N's horses are 3-5 tiles, or 1 city away from (N+1)'s copper. Providing interesting opportunities for diplomacy, or for conflict with aggressive settling...
- Also note that N's copper is 3-5 tiles or 1 city away from (N-1)'s horses. Providing interesting opportunities for diplomacy or for aggressive settling...
- Put iron one city away from capital, possibly on the island across the water from the capital.
- No-one should have horses/copper/iron in their capital city. Giving some of these resources at some capitals but not other capitals introduces too much chance (If these resources are at capitals then people get the resource at no real cost for exploration/settling/tech-revealing). But if each of these resources are one city away from the capital then everyone can get all 3, but it is strategy rather than chance/luck.
- at least one extra strategic military resource on each civ's island to allow trading to the desperate
- Symmetric.

- instead of deleting resources, swap them for another one? e.g swap all gold on the starting donut to gems. Swapping between gold/silver/gems allows clustering (for interesting trading/diplo) without changing balance.
- Put the gold/silver in contested places equally accessible to all - e.g. gold in the island in the centre of the donut, silver in the food-poor central islands of the island area. Do this by swapping between gold/silver/gems/other-equivalent
- I like that the map has some clustering of resources on the islands, since this allows trading.

- In the inner water circle between the donut and the centre island, there are 9 water food resources in the southern half but only 4 in the northern half.

- I like a great deal the idea of giving everyone a galley to start with, to allow early scouting of the islands, which encourages their settlement. I playtested having a galley, and it doesn't reveal the donut nature of the map earlier (unless you stick to the outer coast of the ring, which isn't possible without open borders or cooperative war declarations), and is actually pretty disorientating wrt to the map's nature. It would allow teams far apart on the donut to meet a little sooner, allowing for earlier diplomacy (which make things more interesting), and the island scouting 30 turns earlier than you would usually be able to do it also makes the first turns more interesting. So I think that having a starting galley would make the starting 30 turns a great deal more interesting wrt scouting/diplo than shuffling your warrior/scout one tile per day.
- I don't think it is unbalancing to allow island colonization more easily. But my main concern re. balance is superearly amphibious attacks of empty capitals when there has not been enough time in the game to build a warrior or two. e.g. hide your starting warrior on the boat and sail to next door's capital which is empty or defended by its starting scout. I doubt anyone would do this, but they could... Allowing otherwise impossible amphibious attacks on capitals in the 1st 20 turns by providing a galley could change the game dynamics. But I do like a great deal the idea of a starting galley to make the 1st 30 turns more interesting wrt scouting/diplo, and to facilitate island settling.

[Krill]

I'd rather give them a trireme...force them to research Sailing to settle the new islands/amphib invade. However, this also affects the race to circumnavigation, which I'm unsure about. It's probably "safer" to not give them anything special, but alot more interesting to give them the boat. OTOH, giving them a galley makes it possible for the second city to be placed on an island, instead of for resources...

Could always replace the warrior/scout with a trireme...

Good catch on the water resources inside, they should be redistributed.

Very much disagree with the strat resource though. Making iron hard to get screws over Rome, and placing copper/horses in either direction means that everyone has to go for copper first; if 1 player goes for copper and his adjacent plants in close proximity for horses, an axe rush is the way to play it. Never design or balance a map where there is only 1 correct way to play it.