[SPOILERS] Krill - PB15 - Khan supports involuntary euthanasia providers

[Krill]

Noble, I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not.

[NobleHelium]

It's not. Obviously there is a difference of degree, but it is the same principle. Unless you are talking about informing decisions in some other manner or to encourage some particular behavior, which you'll need to elaborate on because I obviously haven't been paying a lot of attention to debates on parts of the mod given my limited interest in it.

[Krill]

Well, that doesn't make any sense. There is no difference between having the ability to trade maps at the start of the game or at Writing, but there is a difference between at Writing and at Paper? In actuality it's all a difference of degree. Basically, the behaviour that is encouraged is that all players should be attempting to understand who is running away with the game, who is being left to expand to a billion cities in peace, and adjust their actions to stop that. Most games players don't realise what is happening because of a lack of information until it's too late for them to do anything, especially on large maps.

[Krill]

And to be pedantic, you can't see where people settle their capitals with a T0 world map so that wouldn't actually help solve the problem.

[NobleHelium]

Well for one thing, I'm not convinced that there is a significant difference between being able to trade techs at Writing and being able to trade techs at Paper. Obviously at some point it matters, being able to trade at Future Tech would obviously be different.

Most games players don't realize what is happening because they're not good players. And actually, that statement is rather funny given that you loathe C&D and would prefer the game to be played with no score or even demographics if I remember correctly.

Anyway, one thing you could do is put OB back to Writing and then have map trading at Alphabet. I'm not really arguing for or against such a change, mind you. Also, having OB available does increase the information you get, because you can scout out more of your opponents. It just requires actual work rather than a few clicks which most people will agree to.

[darrelljs]

That's a lot of reports . Can't wait to catch up...

This map trade discussion reminds me to ask if you can you add a national wonder at Satellites that gives global visibility?

Darrell

[WilliamLP]

Basically, the behaviour that is encouraged is that all players should be attempting to understand who is running away with the game, who is being left to expand to a billion cities in peace, and adjust their actions to stop that. Most games players don't realise what is happening because of a lack of information until it's too late for them to do anything, especially on large maps.

The other side of that, trying to use an imbalance in understanding the map to get a long term advantage that isn't apparent only looking at demographics and city count, is one of the most interesting parts of Civ to me.

(I know you dismiss out of hand the idea that games here should serve lurkers, but it's also really fun to follow a game where every player has a very limited knowledge of the world and is slowly catching on to the big picture.)

[Krill]

EDIT: Mea culpa, said techs when I meant maps. I'll edit my post and carry on from there.

The only reason, and I feel like I ought to stress that point, the only reason that OB at Writing can be a negative is that it does tend to screw over those players that are fairly isolated and can't get trade routes, and free commerce does have a fairly large impact on the tech rate to those first few classical era techs. So there is an effect. On some maps it can be a pretty big part of the bpt (archipelago maps for one). It's not quite so bad with the GLH being nerfed as well, but it did need to be pushed back a bit.

If map trading were at Alphabet, because Alphabet doesn't really do anything else it can lead to the postponement of map trading to a similar time frame compared to Paper being researched, so there is that downside there, especially if Espionage is not enabled. There is an argument that can be made that the cost of Alphabet ought to be lowered though, which would tie in with this point. If OB were left at Alphabet, map trading moved back form Writing to Alphabet, and the cost were lowered so that it were similar to the cost of Maths, that still have a potential risk to it but would also have a reward. That's...interesting.

I loathe doing C&D, and I pity those that do it (cos it takes so much time that could be spent on other stuff like, I dunno, drinking), but that doesn't really have any effect on how I think CIV (or civ 6) should be designed. I do spend some time figuring out some of the demographics, but that's not necessarily always 100% accurate at figuring out a players potential, as that is defined by the base map. They are not 100% directly comparable, but I see, and agree with, your point to a certain degree.

[Krill]

That's a lot of reports . Can't wait to catch up...

This map trade discussion reminds me to ask if you can you add a national wonder at Satellites that gives global visibility?

Darrell

Don't see why not, but it would probably need DLL coding.

[TheHumanHydra]

Darrell, you mean unfogged visibility, right?